How To What If There's A Lie On Steel?

There are some things that can tell you if the steel is not what you think it should be, but its only a general thing. So lets say you have a knife that should patina but doesn't, or shouldn't but does, that can tell you some. Certain steels will produce a more characteristic patina, but that's hard to sort out unless you have samples to compare to. Something like H1, will not rust, so that can give you a clue. Other tests are more destructive, like spark tests.
Its really a case by case thing. If you have a specific knife that you are concerned about, you could post about it, with pics in the maintenance section, and you'd like get some pointers, though it may not always be possible to find out.
 
As others have said, stick with reputable dealers.

There are some non-destructive methods using X-ray spectroscopy. The easiest is with a handheld Niton gun. It's not always perfect but it can tell you if the steel is in the ballpark family it claims to be. I've had this done a few times and been satisfied with the results.

To determine with no doubt usually requires smelting of the bladesteel and functional destruction of the knife. It's hard to give up a knife for this kind of testing and I've only brought myself to do it twice. Those times were more to validate a brand rather than an individual knife.

It shouldn't be hard to find a materials testing lab with NDT Spectroscopy capability in most average sized cities. Good luck!
 
I know what knife you are talking about, and it was supposed to be S30V, but it actually wound up being a carbon steel. It was a mixup of the supplier, or so goes the official story, and CRKT owned up to the mistake.

That was a very one off incident. Unless you buy a Mantis or Quartermaster, you can rest assured you aren't being screwed over by the company (for big names).
 
Rupestris said:
My BRKT is 14 years old and was made when they only used "A2" so there was no human error or mix up. I've tried to force a patina on it. It won't happen. I have a Bravo-1 that has taken on a natural patina.

I'm not sure which stainless steel the older one is made of but I suspect it isn't A2.
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They upgraded you to stainless at no charge. :)

Seriously there’s no telling, we all assume it’s Bark Rivers fault they could have have received missed label product or bad product from their distributor or even from the steel mill. There a lot of factors in play. People also most realize when you produced products numbering in the tens of thousands you will have more issue’s get by QC than a company only producing the same type product in the hundreds.

It’s just numbers/percentages, company X produces 100 a year with 1 returned. Company Z produces 1000 a year with 10 returned. Both have a 1% return rate however with the internet age company Z gets slammed on the Internet forums. LOL

Honestly, BRK and other knife companies have had some issues in the past no one denies that. I just don’t see it as some wide spread fraud it seems very limited in numbers vs their yearly production numbers. QC makes or breaks a business, in this case even a small number of miss labeled blades getting out can really hurt the trust of your customers. It will take years to undo the past for example BRK that’s why you must have great quality controls in place from day one.
 
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knarfeng said:
Agree. There is no simple home method for testing blade steel.

I avoid any doubt by purchasing name brands from dealers I trust.
If the deal sounds "too good to be true", it probably is.
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Right! Always name brands from trusted dealers. Like this CRKT I got from Knifecenter... ;):rolleyes::p
 
dkb45 said:
I know what knife you are talking about, and it was supposed to be S30V, but it actually wound up being a carbon steel. It was a mixup of the supplier, or so goes the official story, and CRKT owned up to the mistake.

That was a very one off incident. Unless you buy a Mantis or Quartermaster, you can rest assured you aren't being screwed over by the company (for big names).
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Exactly. It Can happen, but it's rare with reputable companies.
 
I just hope that in those Bark River incidents that the mixup was made after heat treatment and not before. That would turn a whoops into a WHOOPS. Heat treat protocols are not usually interchangeable.
 
So if a knife is made in China and claims it is VG10, or S35VN, are those real (i.e. imported steel) or actually Chinese version (similar compositions) of those?
 
Rupestris said:
My BRKT is 14 years old and was made when they only used "A2" so there was no human error or mix up. I've tried to force a patina on it. It won't happen. I have a Bravo-1 that has taken on a natural patina.

I'm not sure which stainless steel the older one is made of but I suspect it isn't A2.
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Have you thought about contacting them ? I know they have replaced knives for customers that got the wrong steel in the past.
 
skyhorse said:
Have you thought about contacting them ? I know they have replaced knives for customers that got the wrong steel in the past.
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There is more wrong with the knife than just questionable steel. The knife itself was made during their first year in business. First run of their second model. I waited ~five months while they got up to speed and I was okay with that.

Years ago I posted on that other knife forum, in the BRKT subforum, with photos of the abysmal F&F. Mike Stewart himself responded with essentially - "Yeah. We sure did make some crap back then."

Who knows. Maybe today his answer would be different.
 
I wouldn't be too terribly concerned about it. Buy from reputable manufacturers and reputable dealers. With the CRKT issue, it was an issue with the China manufacturer scamming them. With BRKT, it's because they're a high-volume producer who makes many otherwise identical versions of the same knives in different steels.

I don't know what Mike's production processes look like these days, but if I were him and wanted to avoid this issue, I'd make it so that whatever was being manufactured in the shop at one time was always all the same steel. As in, all the models we're doing this pay period are A2. All the ones next period are CPM154. And in between steel switches, the entire shop is cleared to ensure that blanks of another steel type aren't left behind inadvertently. If you have high volume, use lots of different steels, but your models are identical and you're a small shop, it's no surprise that without careful production process QC you have some slip by that are mismarked.

Rupestris said:
My BRKT is 14 years old and was made when they only used "A2" so there was no human error or mix up. I've tried to force a patina on it. It won't happen. I have a Bravo-1 that has taken on a natural patina.

I'm not sure which stainless steel the older one is made of but I suspect it isn't A2.
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I think the older stainless BRKTs were mostly 12C27.
 
Rupestris said:
There is more wrong with the knife than just questionable steel. The knife itself was made during their first year in business. First run of their second model. I waited ~five months while they got up to speed and I was okay with that.

Years ago I posted on that other knife forum, in the BRKT subforum, with photos of the abysmal F&F. Mike Stewart himself responded with essentially - "Yeah. We sure did make some crap back then."

Who knows. Maybe today his answer would be different.
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That sucks, I'd ask for a replacement myself. How do you like the Bravo1 ?
 
There is no way to determine what kind of steel a knife has, unless you have a metallurgical laboratory. the only thing you can see is how steel behaves with daily use. If you have a knife that claims to be S35VN and get stained by cutting a lemon, you may suspect that it is not that type of steel. You can see in the ease or not of sharpening. The steels in their composition are very similar, just change small percentages in their elements. As they have said here, buy from reliable suppliers and just trust them ..
 
Chris "Anagarika" said:
So if a knife is made in China and claims it is VG10, or S35VN, are those real (i.e. imported steel) or actually Chinese version (similar compositions) of those?
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That is a good question and I don't have an answer. That is what concerns me the most when it comes to buying Chinese made stuff in which you know customer services is zero. So, you go into things with your eyes open, make your decisions, take your lumps, or gloat on your successes.
 
Sosa said:
Send it to me and I’ll do some destructive testing
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LOL!!!:D:p:thumbsup:

“Edge wear seemed like 154CM. In salt water it rusted like A2. It sparked like S30V on the bench grinder....but it snapped more like 440C in the vice (?). With the cutting torch it felt more like 154CM again. Once it was all melted down I could DEFINIELTLY tell it was ZDP-189.
Glad I could help. It’s in the mail.”
 
Chris "Anagarika" said:
So if a knife is made in China and claims it is VG10, or S35VN, are those real (i.e. imported steel) or actually Chinese version (similar compositions) of those?
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22-rimfire said:
That is a good question and I don't have an answer. That is what concerns me the most when it comes to buying Chinese made stuff in which you know customer services is zero. So, you go into things with your eyes open, make your decisions, take your lumps, or gloat on your successes.
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Years ago when Kizer was just starting out, I contacted a distributer and asked if S35VN was in fact being exported to China, and more specifically to Kizer. I was told yes to both questions. I was also told that many other US made steels were being exported to China as well.

Edit: I think it actually may have been Crucible themselves that told me this. It was a long time ago.
 
The folks at SMKW told me that they export 440A from the US to China for their Rough Rider knives. Obviously I can't confirm that.
 
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