What is 400C steel?

dipbait

dipbait

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Feb 9, 2008
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I have a couple of Japanese kitchen/ fillet knives with 400c on the blades. I cant find any info about 400c. Is this considered a good steel? The knives are very thin, excellent slicers ,and are my favorite kitchen knives.
 
That's a low ally stainless carbon steel and I've never heard of that used in knives. It's described as most economical chromium ferretic stainless steels.

C - 0.050%
Cr - 12.0 - 13.0%
Mn - 1.0%
P - 0.030%
Si - 1.0%
S - 0.030%
Al - 0.25%

At the risk of being accused of steel snob again, I don't believe that it can produce or hold a good edge. 0.05% Carbon, as a minimum means very low hardness for a knife at least...

I'll add this alloy to the knife steel chart, and if you can provide the knife brand it'd be useful, I'll put in notes.
 
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Are your knives 'expensive' ones, or are they just run-of-the-mill (Walmart/grocery store) variety? I'm not knocking 'em, either way, but I've seen a lot of cheaper knives described as using '400 series' stainless (which itself is very non-specific), which usually indicates a cheap knife. To me, '400 series' basically implies 'whatever mystery steel was available to the manufacturer'. I realize there may be a general category called 400 series, but it's still very vague (to me).

I'm wondering if the '400C' is some cheap attempt to vaguely associate it with the more widely respected 440C...
 
dipbait said:
I have a couple of Japanese kitchen/ fillet knives with 400c on the blades. I cant find any info about 400c. Is this considered a good steel? The knives are very thin, excellent slicers ,and are my favorite kitchen knives.
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Good steel or not, it sounds like they're working for you. A lot of fillet knives are made from so-called 'softer' steels (they're generally not hardened to the same higher degree as other knives, because they need to flex). But, for relatively light kitchen duty, they can surprise you. The thin blade makes a big difference for slicing. As long as it can take a decent edge, it should be fine in that capacity (even if it needs some fairly frequent touching up).
 
The brand is Gold 3

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I don't think it's a typo, I've searched and there are more modern knives made of that steel.
 
I do not know what 400c means. However, I have had this knife set since about 1979. It is the best knife set that I have come across. I bought two of them back then. I wish I could find more. The knives are superb and were advertised as gourmet chef knives of the hardest and highest quality steel. That may be a stretch of the truth. But you figure: My knives are now 31 years old. The blades are like new. I use them constantly. My 2 paring knives were stolen by some employees about a year ago. I miss them dearly and have not found adequate replacements even at $200.00 per knife! The ergonomics of the blade and the thinness seem to be unmatched. The wood handles look worn but that seems to authenticate their utility. These knives will easily surpass a 100 years of use. I will pass them down to my progeny when I depart this world!! Until then I am very pleased to have and use them. I am looking to replace the stolen paring knives with authentic original ones.
 
I don't think that 400C is the blade alloy for these knives. I first bought one at a thrift store 10 years ago because of the peculiar offset blade design. I wanted to modify it slightly and use it to bone out elk for easier transport. The blade design came close to a design idea of my own. I did not find the steel particularly soft. I assumed it was a fairly typical Japanese Molybdenum containing alloy. I would have rated the hardness about 56. That is harder than most German and American kitchen knives, but pretty mid-range for a Japanese export model.

Subsequently I found a lot more of them and got interested in the usefulness of the offset blade design and thin profile. Simultaneously I began to loan knives to a group of volunteers I worked with at the local soup kitchen. I standardized on the 7.5" utility knife as a preferred model for the volunteers. The handles are well designed and large enough for a secure grip in either a man or woman's hands. In a way it functions like a santoku, but with a somewhat narrower blade. They held up quite well under considerable use. All-in-all I have owned about 20 of them.

They come in a variety of unusual shapes. The fillet knife is unusually thin and narrow even by fillet blade standards. The offset paring knife is unusually effective for peeling a potato or on a cutting board.

Today I found a set at a flea market. It came with an enclosed warranty card. I guess they were sold as "Master Gourmet Knives" and each knife has a unique serial number on the opposite side of the blade from the "Gold 3..."
 
PS. I often see these compared to Mac Knives on the internet. These are definitely a step down in materials and workmanship from Mac. Mac knives are made of something like AUS-8 alloy and are around 58 RC. They have a finer fit and workmanship. I like Mac knives better, but they are harder to come by. I think that Mac knives were promoted more like in 1969 while "Master Gourmet Knives" were promoted around 1979. The Mac knives take a finer edge than the Gold 3 knives.
 
I have several Gold 3 knives and don't believe that they only have .05% Carbon. They take and hold a superlative edge. If you see one at a flea market, grab it and run.
 
tiguy7 said:
I have several Gold 3 knives and don't believe that they only have .05% Carbon.
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Well, I can neither deny or confirm that :) All I found out was AISI 400C steel spec, which has 0.05C, and I can ad that JIS(Japan) steel standard doesn't have 400C steel. Apparently it is someone's proprietary alloy.
 
The Gold 3s I have , stay sharp for quite a while. Getting them sharp is a booger because they are so flexible, but worth the time and effort.
 
I'd hate to resurrect a thread, but I was looking through some of my parents' old kitchen knives, and I found a paring knife that's actually the same make as the one from the pictures above. I tested it on a sheet of paper, and it was kinda dull, but still sliced through kind of okay. After sharpening it up a bit and giving it a good stropping, I have to say that I am absolutely blown away by how sharp it is now. Time will tell how it holds that edge, but I have to say I was impressed. The sharpness was most likely due to how thin the blade was, though. It was only about as thin as the cardboard on a box of junior mints (my delicious point of reference).
 
I have some USA made knives by RADA Cutlery with blades about 1/32" thick. They keep cutting even after the original primary hollow grind has been worn away. I just keep them sharp on the 220/1000 combo water stone. Thin works well in the kitchen. I'm also leaning toward a proprietary steel or a type. 0.05% carbon is just barely above what will dissolve in ferrite (0.02%). A steel like that would be difficult to get a sharp edge on just due to the low strength and the nearly impossible to remove burr that would form. Also, just a little knife world paradox, but harder steel (stronger) flexes more than softer steel. Softer steel will bend. I have blades at 64+ HRc that will flex beyond 90 degrees and don't take a set, though if you do go too far, they just break without much warning. This assumes the same geometry.
 
I always keep an eye out for the Gold 3 knives. I grew up using them and have found them to be superior to any other "generic" knife. I'm always looking for more at flea markets and thrift shops. The thinness and shape (the shape was the reason I fell in love with these knives) of the blade and the cutting edge only needing an occasional touch up with a steel seem to be unique among what I assume to be department store knives, and I have not found an equal in my price range.
 
I found a knife while digging through a warehouse, with 400c written on it I would also like to know what it means
 
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