What is 420 HC ? Please help Knifenuts

D

Darkjedi

Joined
Aug 9, 2000
Messages
56
I was wondering what this steel is? Is 420HC a tougher steel than 420js? If it is a decent steel could this be the new metal than Cold Steel is going to be using in their new 2001 products? Any info would be great.

Thanks, Darkjedi.
 
It is 420 with a slight amount of carbon added. There are a number of threads in the main forum about this steel. Camillus is using it in the Arclite.

-Cliff
 
If, as I suspect, '420JS' is the same or nearly the same as '420J2', then it may be charitable to term it mediocre. Here is what one article has to say here:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">420J2 Stainless Steel - Again, just because it's "100% pure Stainless Steel" doesn't mean it's all that great. 420 Stainless Steel could normally produce a fair wallhanger sword. However, 420J2 has very little carbon content, so the Rockwell hardness won't be higher than 53 Rockwells. Even though many Marto and Martespa products fall into this range - and the spines (not edges) of Japanese swords are in this range - the unfortunate fact that 420J2 swords are so quickly churned out by these rip-off overseas companies that they've been independently rated at a mere 45 Rockwells! That means that a Marto wallhanger could cut through it! So why do these companies use 420J2 for their swords? First off, it's extremely easy to grind - almost like butter. But because they can grind ten swords to shape in the same time it takes to make, say, a Marto, the fact is that their greed for money exceeds the importance to them that their swords cannot hold an edge after going through cardboard a few times! Think of 420J2 as the stainless equivalent of mild steel - with very low carbon content and thus will not harden.</font>
Click to expand...

Walt
 
There have been some tests done to show that
420 HC (higher carbon) is superior to 440A.

It is great for a "stampable" steel, however it is no match for a higher alloy steel like
Ats-34, 154-cm etc. which must be water or laser profiled.

420 HC is not the same as 420J or 420J2.
Its not just the amount of carbon that defines edge-holding or the amont of chromium that defines stain-resistance-it is the ratio of all the various elements that creat the final "package".
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anthony Lombardo:
There have been some tests done to show that 420 HC (higher carbon) is superior to 440A.</font>
Click to expand...

That is a test I would like to read about. Not saying that you're wrong, but I'd be very interested in reading about it.

------------------
A dog at play has the mind of a wise martial arts master, a mind capable of perfect focus. - Marc Christophe

iktomi
 
A piss poor excuse for a steel.

Very cheap to make and very cheap people use it... Not to say that the $20 Arc thing is poor... But the steel sure is.

Great rust resistance though, very little pesky Carbon to get in the way.

Still as a 'real steel' user I accept no immitations, including Cobolt and Ti knives.

Oh yes and Ceramic blades suck as well.

In the real world I live and use knives, the mantle is where I hang my foes, not a knife.

I eagerly await the storm that aught to stir up! My opinions are not quite that low, but, well ding ding round one!

"Gona have me some fun, gona have me some fun" (Predator)
W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
Sorry about the typo in 420j2 to 420js. I am just trying to figure out what Cold Steel is doing with their new product lineup.

Again, thank you very for your responses.

And thank the Lord there are so many knowledgeble knifenuts.

Darkjedi
 
Cold steel is looking to maximize the bottom line at the expense of performance. I have always liked their Carbon V but do not care for 420 HC at all. My 90's Buck knives which are 420 HC certainly are much poorer performers compared to my 70's Bucks which are 440C. My 440A Schrade knives seem to hold an edge longer than my pathetic Bucks. Never again will I purchase a knife made of 420 anything....blankable or not.

[This message has been edited by bansidthe (edited 01-04-2001).]
 
"General",

Once again your comments bust you back down to "Buck Private".

But opinions are like iceholes I guess.

 
General,
I'm just curious, what knife in 420HC do you have experience with?

------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
www.camillusknives.com
 
While I didn't quite want to be a blunt, I have to pretty much agree with everything that The General said. Bust me to "Buck Private", too, and I'll be proud of it. While I have highest respect for Buck Knives for their integrity and cutomer service, I have not been satisfied with their blades since the 70's myself. Except their special runs of BG42. 420HC just isn't as good a steel as what they used to use, whether it was 440C or 440A.

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A dog at play has the mind of a wise martial arts master, a mind capable of perfect focus. - Marc Christophe

iktomi
 
I made my point by being that which I am not= Blunt! Anyone who cannot read the fact that I was being cynical and over the top on purpose read my other posts. This is NOT my style at all!

Sorry if the usual suspects fell in the hole
wink.gif


The knife I have is a Bucklite. I bought it a few years ago as it was marked 444C on the blade. I mistakenly believed it was 440c. It became redily apparent that this was not the case, when feathering some fire sticks blunted the knife in mins. That is a poor performance. I thought the heat treat was bad. It was the steel! 420HC.

Higher Carbon indeed! Minimal becomes low...

Rockspyder! I get the impression yyou understood my point.

Again, if you all look again, I do not make posts like this, I could not resist being a bit blunt here as it is an area that angers me. I was very disapointed with this knife.

Buck knives are promoted as legendary for edge retention etc. Well lick my left testi**l! It was not even a very cheap knife. For another £3 I could buy an ATS-34 Gerber knife.

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
I guess we all know there are various types of steel and that some have advantages over others. I don't think most will argue that BG-42 is a better product than 420hc. It would be interesting to do a "blind" test of the various stainless and carbon steels to see what retained an edge best, what best resisted chips, etc.. That may beg the questions of best for what purpose and price. Realistically, maybe we have developed an aversion to sharpening.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darkjedi:
Sorry about the typo in 420j2 to 420js. I am just trying to figure out what Cold Steel is doing with their new product lineup.


Darkjedi </font>
Click to expand...

I thought I had read that the Cold Steel page is incorrect, and that those new folders are really coming out in AUS-8, not 420HC. AUS-8 might bring a few moans with it as well, but not nearly so many as 420HC, and there's no denying AUS-8 takes a great edge, though it won't keep it as long as ATS-34.

I'm not going to slam Cold Steel on this until I'm sure I know which steel they're using in those new folders. If it's 8A, I might slam them anyway, just not nearly as hard
smile.gif


Joe

 
On the Buck Website a few months ago, it said that 420HC was the standard steel for the 110 series knives. In a question to a manager at Buck a few years ago about the steel in my knives (M9 and 444C) I was told 425M in M9 and 420HC in the 444C. I have just e-mailed Buck to confirm this. A L, I suggest you do the same, I was under the understanding that most here knew this...

I am not going to 'educate' you
rolleyes.gif


Anyone else back me up on this?

It was a few years ago and the Manager may have been wrong.

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
Ah yes: http://www.buckknives.com/Pages/tech_faqs.html

What are the alloying elements in Buck steel?

420 HC stainless steel contains...

Element Percent Effect
Chromium 12.0% - 14.0% Corrosion resistance, Hardness, Tensile Strength
Nickel .50% max Toughness, Corrosion Resistance
Carbon .40% - .44% Hardness
Manganese 1.00% max. Hardness, Tensile Strength
Silicon 1.00% max Toughness
Phosphorus .05% max Hardness, Machineability
Sulfur .03% max Machineability
Molybdenum Trace Hardness, Toughness, Machineability

Elements such as Carbon (C), although not an alloying element, Chromium (Ch), Molybdenum (Mo) and Phosphorus (P) provide hardenablility of our steel, which gives resistance to abrasion and dulling. Manganese (Mn), and Silicon (Si), increase the toughness properties of our blades, for a strong and durable blade. Our steel is rust-resistant due to the inclusion of Chromium (Cr) and Nickel (Ni).

Molybdenum (Mo) and Sulfur (S) are mixed with steels to improve machineability during fabrication processing, and may add ease of resharpening.

Ask and thy shall recieve!

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
For the frugal knife user who only does the odd chore and doesn't need superior edge holding, it is just fine, adequate, and just plain acceptable. Also, for the dirty job where the knife gets scratched, chipped, and generally thrashed, you wouldn't want to go through a $100 knife every couple of months. The ARCLITE might be perfect there too.

Seriously folks, I carried the ARCLITE around all weekend opening mail, doing odd kitchen jobs, cutting drawer lining paper, and it was of absolutely no consequence to me that the knife was made out of low carbon steel. It did the jobs I asked it to do. If that is all you need from a knife, and you are not a knife aficionado, anybody who would spend more might seem foolish to you.


 
Very fair point Steve, very fair. I was greatly dissapointed with 420HC. It did not suit me at all. Others may find it acceptable. Secondly 420HC is very good at resisting rust, esential for a neck knife. Thirdly it keeps the price way down!

But 0.4% Carbon?
rolleyes.gif
Hell it dulls as you look at it!

My biased opinion was based upon the fact that if a small folder dulls cutting a few softwood twigs (shaving the wood to make a fuzzy stick) then it is piss poor. Thats all, maybe cutting string and opening letters would be ok.

Lastly I enjoy sharpening a knife. I am quite good at it! But I do not appeciate a trip home when camping to resharpen a dull knife! Yes I have a few pocket systems such as the DMT range, but an edge lasting about 2 mins before going noticibly dull is a very poor performer.

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
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