What is 420 HC ? Please help Knifenuts

One thing I overlooked in the original question: Is 420HC better than 420J2?

YES.

But, not on the order that even 440A or AUS-8 are better than 420J2. 420J2 is about as sharp as cardboard. 420HC is a large step up from 420J2. However, steels like 440C, 154CM, and even ATS-34 (my pet peeve) are not even in the same ballpark, they are so much better.

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A dog at play has the mind of a wise martial arts master, a mind capable of perfect focus. - Marc Christophe

iktomi
 
Like the man said! Nice one Rockspyder!

W.A.

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"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
General,
I asked what knife in 420HC you had experience with because my experience with 420HC has been somewhat better than what you related. Keep in mind, the quality of the heat treat and the edge geometry have ALOT to do with performance. I have no problem skinning a deer with a 3.25", 420HC blade that has good edge geometry. Sure its not as sharp when I'm done as when I started, but it surely gets the job done.

With our inhouse heat treatment, we are able to take 420HC to 58 Rc. At this level, we are still not having chipping problems. I realize that there is more to edge-holding than hardness, but its not a bad place to start looking. 420HC's performance at this hardness completely outclasses what I have come to expect from imported knives in 420J2. We have tested some of these in the mid to high 40's on the Rc scale.

I appreciate high performance, super blade materials as much as the next knifenut, but keep in mind, there are alot more knives sold in 420HC and 1095 carbon, than cpm420v and 52100. There are alot of users out there everyday getting good performance out of steels like 420HC, that will never spend, to them, big $$$$$ on a knife made from a "super steel".

Are there better steels, sure there are. I've got a folder in CPM420V in one pocket and a TALONITE FB in the other. Could I tell the difference in the way either of them cut my steak last night and the way my ARCLITE did...nope.

Rockspyder,
Re-420HC and 440A. We actually find 440A and 420HC pretty close in performance. We use alot of both, more 420HC now that you can't get 440A in "coil form" to run through the blanking dies like you used to be able to do. 420HC seems to be a bit less prone to chip than 440A, and they get to about the same optimal working hardness....58 Rc. YMMV.

I've gotta run now...but check Steve Harvey's post on his ARCLITE's performance in 420HC compared to the custom ARCLITE in cpm420V. I'll post the link later.....or I'm sure someone will get it for me.

Talk to you soon I'm sure
wink.gif


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Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
www.camillusknives.com

[This message has been edited by Will Fennell (edited 01-06-2001).]
 
Fair enough Will. I can only repeat what has been my experience. I realise that 420HC is better than 420J2 but it is a bit like saying moldy cake is beter than moldy bread!

Lets be honest, this 'cheap' steel is used to keep the price low. Nothing wrong with that at all, as long as the product is cheap its a fair deal. It is Buck using this poor steel and still pushing the edge holding motto crap that I object to. Buck make some fine knives in decent steel. Why try to kid us?

My focus was more about that and my poor experience with 420HC that a go at you company or the Arclite. Please don`t think I am being overly unreasonable here.

Hope the Arclite does well!

If I wanted a neck knife for little cash and did not own a dropoint Stiff KISS I would consider it, even in 420HC!

W.A.

W.A.

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"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
Sorry to digress, but these Buck comments interest me.

I have a Buck 110 purchased in '74 or '75 which has served very well and seems to take and hold an extremely aggressive edge.
I bought my wife a Buck 112 in '81 which has done as well or better.
I would not have guessed 440C on the 110, and had assumed a proprietary "mystery" steel, and I had further assumed the 112 had the same steel from its performance and appearance.

In the early '90's or whenever Buck introduced the Nighthawk, I purchased one which has held an edge like ceramic, and has taken possibly the sharpest edge I have ever put on a knife.
At the time I heard not 425-M but 425-H, both of which remain meaningless to me.
I did hear rumors about the Nighthawk doing very well in a military competition, especially as regards edge-holding and corrosion-resistance, but failing overall because of brittleness, which would make sense.
I sure would like to hear the correct story.

Probably should have started a new topic.

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom
If one takes care of the means, the end will take care of itself.
 
Interesting comments, Ken. My experience with Buck knives has been pretty much the opposite. The 500 Duke model that I got in the late 70's held an edge that I have yet to be able to find on any other knife. I don't know what steel it was, but based on what I've read elsewhere, I think it was 440 series. It held an edge like crazy, and took a really aggressive edge. It was easy to sharpen, too. The closest thing I have found so far is 154CM, after trying ATS-34, 440V, D2, M2, and Talonite. D2, M2, and Talonite will hold an edge longer, but you better not even nick any metal with the Talonite. D2 and M2 handle that better, but are harder to sharpen.... anyway, I digress. The Duke that I had would hold an aggessive edge a long time, and was easy to resharpen. No Buck that I have had since would do as well, and it seems that they have been getting steadily worse. To the point now that I just don't buy them anymore, unless they are a special run with BG42. I DO know that Buck uses 420HC now, and it is not satisfactory for me. I know that a lot of other people are satisfied with them, and with 420HC. But, a lot of people are satisfied with 420J as well, sooo.....

Now, I see both Camillus and Cold steel starting to add more 420HC to their lines. I am saddened by that. Maybe it is necessary for them to do so in order to keep the cost low enough that the more common knife buyer will buy them. But, IMO, it is unfortunate that new items such as the recently unveiled Ralph EDC, and the Arc Lite, are strapped to 420HC steel. I hope that Camillus can sell lots of them, because I like Camillus, and I like Darrel's work. But, I don't plan on buying one. I don't need a knife that cheap. Well, er... inexpensive.

Now, though, about that mini-Talon......

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A dog at play has the mind of a wise martial arts master, a mind capable of perfect focus. - Marc Christophe

iktomi

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 01-08-2001).]
 
Will :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Are there better steels, sure there are. I've got a folder in CPM420V in one pocket and a TALONITE FB in the other. Could I tell the difference in the way either of them cut my steak last night and the way my ARCLITE did...nope.</font>
Click to expand...

If you have a folder in CPM-420V that can't seriously outperform a 420HC blade then someone did something seriously wrong with the 420V blade or it was made with very different intentions, for example cutting ability traded for excessive durability / strength .

Better materials can be used to be better blades. However just having better materials doesn't make the knife perform better. In order to grind a better blade the maker has to know how to use the advantages that the material offers in order to raise the performance.


If both blades are ground identical (420HC and CPM-420V) the push cutting ability will be near identical until the level of polish becomes influenced by the grain size. The slicing ability will also only be different again at very high polishes. There will be a large difference in the edge durability / strength however, and of course edge retention.


420HC is a very cheap steel both to buy and work with. It wears very quickly compared to most cutlery steels and is not as strong as well so the edge will dull quickly from rolling and wear as well as fracture from excessive bending. However it is one of the more ductile and tough stainless steels so it could be used for grittier work than say a 59-61 RC ATS-34 blade.

As for, the "its the heat treat" arguement, well yes the heat treatment of blades is very important. But its not like Camillus is the only company doing quality heat treatment on their knives so that is a just a red herring.

-Cliff
 
Actually Cliff I think you just made Will's point.

For a limited duration task like cutting a steak at dinner a well maintained (sharpened) 420HC blade at RC 58 will be virtually indestinguishable from 420V or even Talonite.

It is over longer periods of hard use that the High Performance Steels make a significant difference.

The question that remains is: Given the way the knife will be used does the performance enhancement justify the additional cost?



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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
The critical part being "assuming they are ground the same", they should not be unless you need a different level of strength/durability in which case the difference in performance will be very significant as one blade will take damage and the other will not. Anyway, assuming you want to retain the same level of durability, a better steel will allow a more efficent blade geometry.

You can of course grind the geometry without consideration of the blade material and in fact this is not uncommon. Now unless this is done to allow a range of strength/durability, such blades should not be used to judge the performance of the steel, especially in regards to cutting ability, but instead the ability of the maker. In order to optomize the performance of a design you must adapt it to the materials it is constructed from otherwise you have wasted money on expensive material by ignoring the possible benefits you could have achieved.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 01-12-2001).]
 
Rockspyder, I think we have had the same experience.
I misled when I compared my Nighthawk to ceramic.
I didn't mean long-time edge holding but the quality of aggressiveness.
I find properly sharpened ceramic to cut a broad range of materials with little pressure, and my Nighthawk behaves that way, and surprisingly so for so thick and edge.

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom
If one takes care of the means, the end will take care of itself.
 
I don't think you will see as much difference in the grinds from the factory as you might expect.

In fact since the 420HC is not expected to hold an edge forever and is easier to sharpen it might get a higher performance grind than the premium steel.

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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ken Cox {regarding ceramic}:
I didn't mean long-time edge holding but the quality of aggressiveness.
I find properly sharpened ceramic to cut a broad range of materials with little pressure, and my Nighthawk behaves that way, and surprisingly so for so thick and edge.</font>
Click to expand...

Ahhh... now I understand. And I can't in any way disagree with you.
smile.gif


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A dog at play has the mind of a wise martial arts master, a mind capable of perfect focus. - Marc Christophe

iktomi
 
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