What is a Custom Knife?

B

bruce

Joined
Dec 4, 1998
Messages
1,347
Forgive me for tilting at windmills, and I'm not trying to get between Les Robertson and Spark in their continueing fued over forum management, but I'm still struggling with the use of the term "custom" to define knives made entirely by one maker. I know Les will restate the obvious, that the Knifemakers Guild has decreed it be so. Well, I went to the Knifemakers Guild web site and read their bylaws and rules. Under the section identified as "History" they identify the advancement of "custom" knives. In their bylaws, they state that a maker "Must be engaged in the making of "benchmade" knives for sale to the public, including the grinding and/or forging his own knives." Elsewhere in their rules they talk of "handmade" knives.

If I look in the dictionary, it defines the term "custom" as "made to order". I used to get made to order suits when I lived in England. I picked out the material, type and number of pockets, style of lapels, one, two, or no vents in the back, tunnel belt loops or regular, etc. This was a suit I designed from the options available. Based on this, perhaps Randall Made Knives and others like them (Chris Reeve Sebenzas, etc.) are the true "custom" knives since you can pick a large number of custom features, "made to order" if you will, like handle materials and shape, blade steels and lengths, hilt materials and shapes, and spacers.

Perhaps the guild should clarify their use of the word "custom" for the knife novice by using a more appropriate word like "benchmade" or "handmade". I realize both of these terms carry problems with them, the most glaring is the trademark Benchmade Knives has on the term. Perhaps "handmade" is the most appropriate. But it's time to quite confusing the public -- both those who know knives, and those who would like to.

Bruce Woodbury
 
eek.gif
 
Bruce,

I have answered this question at least 5 times on similar threads. Obviously, this does not meet your requirements. The good news, you can make up or use whatever definition you like.

If you want to say Randall's and knives from Reeve are custom, then do so. Bruce, buy what you like. However, don't get the long face with your bottom lip sticking out, when you try to sell or trade them and others do not consider them custom knives.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor"
Albert Einstein
 
Les, I didn't ask a question so I don't need any of your five answers, all of which have been unsatisfactory to me so far. I did state an opinion. It appears that those responding are in the "custom" knife game so they are apparently part of the problem, not the solution. Since I am only a "custom" knife buyer and not a maker or seller my opinion doesn't count; so be it.

By the way, Les, my Randall's have sold just fine; no problem there. In another thread you called Randalls "factory knives". I would submit that your inaccurate use of the term would prompt me to say that your "customs" are also factory knives, just very small factories with fewer people.

Apparently you all don't want to talk about this right now, I'll wait six months and see if you've changed your minds!

Bruce Woodbury
 
Oh boy....one of those hot threads
smile.gif
. Let me start by saying that all I do is buy knives, and I still have alot to learn, but, since im bored I guess I will say what I think. First, I would say, IMO, that Randall knives do qualify as custom. The fact that more than one person works on them is irrelavent(sp?). I have seen many knives in magazines where a maker does the knife, and somebody else engraves it...or even does the handle work, however, nobody would argue that they are not customs. The knifemakers guild has many fantastic members, but as with any organization, they look out for thier own interests. The fact that they alone try and define customs does not impress me much, as it does seem one sided. The same can be said of Les, who seems to get very upset if you disagree with him...which I do. Being a custom knife dealer does not alone make one the all knowing all powerful expert. This forum has over 7000 members, and who is to say who is right and who is wrong?

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Richard
icq 61363141
Just some knife pictures
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=110070&a=4518795
UPDATED and REVISED
 
I think this is more of a case of common use superceding actual meaning. To define a knife more accurately, don't bother with a specific word, but describe the process in more detail. Call the Randalls custom-made factory knives. Call a knife made for you, to your specs., by a specific person, a custom handmade knife. Call a knife made by that same maker, but to no specific person's specs., just a handmade knife.

However, the common use of the term 'custom knife' includes both of the last two examples, but not the first. So, it's slightly innaccurate. Deal with it. Lots of expressions are. Ever told someone you be done "in a second"? Did you take longer than a second? Some things have meanings different from their dictionary definitions.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Bruce and Richard, there is nothing really more to say. You disagree with the definition accepted by most of use who make, buy, sell and collect custom knives. So as I wrote in a previous post, use your own definintion, and collect what you want.

Richard, I would suggest you contact Al Pendray, President of the Knifemakers Guild and ask him, why Randall knives only hold an Associate membership and not a Voting Membership. He may be able to give you the answer you are looking for.

Richard, your comment "Being a custom knife dealer does not alone make one the all knowing all powerful expert." That may be true. However, in the same vein, I would ask you to list your qualifications in regards to custom knives.

Side by side comparison would allow those 7,000 members you listed to make up the own minds. As to who would be considered more of an "expert". Bruce, I don't want you to feel left out, so feel free to list your "expert" qualifications as well. After all guys, isnt this about being able to make up our own minds.

Bruce and Richard, if you feel like you need to continue to make this confrontational. I would like to suggest that your next posts be listed on my forum. Mike Turber has assured me that we can discuss anything in any manner we choose. More importantly, Spark's censorship is not allowed in my forum.

By doing so, we will remove the grief that the moderators are sure to feel with continued posts here!

Guys, I keep saying this...buy what you like.

But keep the discussion here limited to the custom knife arena! Failure to do so will bring the wrath of Spark!




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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor"
Albert Einstein
 
I have noticed that the use of the term literally when the term figuratively would be correct has grown to epidemic proportions in recent years. If you say, “I literally fell out of my chair laughing”, you imply that you might be suffering from cataplexy.

Anyone else noticed this? I thought I would bring it up since we seem to be arguing semantics once again.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
The term custom has nothing (necessarily) to do with whether the knife was made in a factory or handmade.

I will give you that Randalls are custom made - made to specific order. But good luck trying to convince me that they aren't factory knives.

At the same time, series knives or limited production knives may be handmade, but I wouldn't venture to call them custom.

I would also argue that specific definitions are necessary, and universal agreement on terms would make dealings much smoother. If we are going to be stickling on terms regarding condition, like NIB and LNIB, then we certainly should be concrete in our references to the specific origins of the knives.

Les' vehemence in this debate is understandable, and his arguments are logical and designed to make dealing in knives, for and between any of us, easier. We owe it to ourselves and each other to find concrete, specific definitions for these terms, because a) it is possible, and b) it is we who will benefit from them.

Anyone wanna talk about sole authorship vis-a-vis manufactured screws and fittings?

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AKTI Member #A000832

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."
 
Hi Brian,

You are correct, it is important for all who buy custom knives to know what they are getting. This goes back to doing your homework. The more you know about knife construction techniques, metalurgy and machining techniqes and forging techniques the better off you will be.

My "vehemence" as you put it, is based on years of buying and selling custom knives.
I agree with you completely that concrete definitions would be nice. However, I think that will be difficult because of the ever changing nature of custom knives.

When you discuss "sole authorship", how far do you take this. Does the maker have to get the iron ore and produce the piece of steel he works with? Even the ABS, in most cases buys a piece of steel and then forges it.

The other problem is machines. Which machine can be used and which can't. After all, they are machines. Even if you were to cut the blade with a hack saw blade, you would still techincally be using "mechanical assistance".

Then there is the cost of sole authorship. In order to make your own screws, you need a micro-lathe (another piece of equipment)then there is the time and materials (which if these materials are bought, you no longer have sole authorship).

It's these types of questions that will make it very difficult for a concrete definition.

As the technology advances and is available to more makers I think you will see a new catagory emerge.

For lack of a better word, semi-production or production-custom. This catagory will include Randall, Chris Reeve Knives as well as those makers who are using one or more people (who actually help in any way, shape or form) acutally touch the knife during assembly.

Brian, my vehemence comes from having been the one that has told knife collectors,that what they were told by someone else (usually another dealer) is not the truth.

Makers and most collectors do not find themselves as the first group of people collectors turn to when they want to "move" a knife. This generally falls to the dealers.

When I tell them a Randall is not a custom knife or that the knife was not sold to them at retail price, etc. Im the one, who on occasion the collector gets mad at.

This is why I have said in other threads, check out the person's credentials before you buy a knife from them.

There was a person on a thread here last year who challanged my definition of a custom knife. He came right out and said, he had never owned a custom knife, in fact he had never even held a custom knife. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, is this the guy your going to ask for advice from when it comes time to buy a custom knife...probably not.

So as St. James and Brian have pointed out, don't necessarily take the term "custom" as the literal word. After all the word handmade really applies to no knife. Even flintnappers have a flint for mechanical assistance to build their knife. No knife is made with just your bare hands.

Guys, do your homework, define what your collection is going about, buy what you like and enjoy what you buy.

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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor"
Albert Einstein
 
Easy Les! As you should know by now, I'm on your side! Vehemence WRT closely held beliefs is GOOD!

Personally, although I find the idea of making knives with all hand tools "romantic" (Ah, to listen to Don Fogg talk about the noise disturbing his "wa"...), I'm not really hung up on the use of powered machinery, unless it's used to produce batches of interchangeable parts. Wanna use a CNC machine to make the frame for a single knife? Hey - I'm pretty sure that it's just as hard as, if not harder than, working it free form. But once you're working from a pile of identical parts, I think that some of the magic is gone. And once you're using another pair of hands to do anything beyond turning screws (OK, outside made incidental parts and fasteners do not kill a handmade knife - but see below...; and in fabrication, turning screws is literal - inserting and rotating them is all I'd allow someone else to do), you're a semi-production facility, even if it's just a single apprentice.

WRT sole authorship, I think that only the production of raw material has wiggle room. Does the making start with raw ore, or bar stock, or an old file/saw blade? I dunno - but I do think that forging is closer to the bone than stock removal. I don't think it's necessary that the maker should dive for his own pearl, or pan for his own gold, but it certainly does sound sorta cool... Like Richter making knives out of sunken Iranian patrol boats - super cool!

When talking about sole authorship, I'm sorry, but there are no incidental parts. Screws and fasteners should be homemade. That's sorta what "sole authorship" implies to me.

WRT cost, hey - some things in life SHOULD be expensive. If you're truly appreciative of top of the line, no holds barred works of art, then you probably aren't going to quibble over the price of hand turned screws. I WANT to pay a little extra to a maker who will put in a little extra. By the same token, I WANT to wait a couple of months longer so that the maker has time to look over his work and make small changes as time gives him the perspective. If I'm paying $5000 for the knife, and it will take an extra $200 to get the screws hand turned - no biggie.

If we could come to an agreement on these definitions, then great - we'd all have rules to guide us. Until then, though, we're left with our own. I have my own set of definitions, and if I ever use the terms "custom", or "sole authored", you can bank it that I will be using them in the context of these definitions, any of which I will be glad to clearly and consistently explain. I think that they capture the spirit of the words, as well as the literal definitions of the words. In lieu of an "Oxford" definition, that's all I ask of others using them.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."

[This message has been edited by Brian_Turner (edited 08-24-2000).]
 
Les, I applaud your intrepidity in suggesting there may be a class of knives between factory and "custom/handmade/benchmade." I especially like your suggestion for the term "production-custom." This seems to fit the category very well. Now that you've put it in print I hope it somehow becomes enobled and widely used. Thank you.

Bruce Woodbury
 
Bruce,

Stop it, your going to spoil me.

I can come up with these catagories or terms. However most who collect, make and sell custom knives would see no reason to have these extra catagories. As the term "custom knife" as it describes a catagory of knives, now is part of the lexicon of knives and has been for 30 years. Most who are in the custom knife business know what a "custom" knife is.

My intent was use this to describe a knife that is built by committee, that previously was thought of as a custom knife. This would describe the makers who have assistants in their shop.

However, this type of listing will not come to fruition in the custom knife community. As it would be looked upon as a stigma and would devalue these makers work.

Clearly there is a need to clarify catagories. Bruce, if you think this is a simple chore, go to the Guild Show business meeting next July! You will be amazed at how little can actually be accomplished by a group of people, who have the same goals in mind, in 4 hours. Im sure the PKA and ABS have some similar internal struggles.

So where does this leave us. Ultimately, you the custom knife buyer will determine which makers and which catagories will be successful/unsuccessful in the future.

However, understand that the risk you take trying to create new catagories is that others may/will not agree with your choices.

Bruce, perhaps you can be the M.Scott Peck of custom knives and choose the path less traveled.

Good Luck!

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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor"
Albert Einstein
 
HI Brian,

I know your on my side. I was not tyring to cause an arguement. Simply, I was trying to point out how difficult it is to have one definintion that is all encompassing.

You are in that top 1% of collectors to who paying for $200 for 8 screws is fine. Most of these knives are custom by both definitions.

Howver, buyers who allow custom knives to exist are the under $1,000 knife buyers. This group of buyers makes up 90% of the custom knife buying public. These makers and buyers create the market that allows for those $5,000 knives to exist. Micro-economics are basically the same no matter what the market/product is.

Brian, much like with Bruce, you can choose to push for an exacting definintion of what you want out of custom knives.

Note, I am not trying to be a Smart A** with this, I am providing a business strategy.

Probably, the quickest way to get results is to start your own business and advertise that you carry (insert catagory name here) only type knives. The fact you have a new catagory of knives will create interest in what you are selling.

Create a huge presence on the internet and in the knife magainzes, set up at a lot of shows, hand out leaflets/flyers to explain your point of view. You will attract a certain amount of following.

It will take several years and tens of thousands of dollars to get this off the ground.

The question is now, will it be worth it to you in both time and money to create this catagory?

By the way, everytime a corporation gets ready to launch a product, it has to answer the same question. If it will not be profitable, the product does not get launched.

Then again, there is always the exception to the rule...remember the Pet Rock!

Here is another example, the Frisbee, started out life as a pie tin (the pies came from Frisbee Bakery, so the name Frisbee was stamped into the pie tin. It's stories like that, that kept rivited to my seat in Graduate School). It was some crazy college students who started throwing it around that created a new catagory for this pie tin.

Good luck!



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor"
Albert Einstein
 
I fail to understand the stigma that people attach to knives because they aren't one-off, custom made, sole-authored handmades. I patronize artists because I want to subsidize the creation of their artform. I also buy lots of knives.

If the terms custom, handmade, and sole-authored are to be bastardized for commercial use (which also, ultimately, serves to subsidize and patronize the artform) and common use, I certainly won't lose sleep over it. But I also will continue to rail for the preservation and promotion of these "other" knives, which satisfy the original and penultimate definitions of the terms.

If they want to call a series knife a custom, so be it. Then what do I call a true custom? They are different, and that distinction needs to be recognized, regardless of whose feelings get hurt.

Somebody wants to use stock parts assembled by an apprentice and call the knife handmade? Great. Agreed. Now, what do we call the knives that are singularly fabricated by one pair of hands?

If the spirit of these terms is to be ignored (or sold out), and they are to be affixed to another "thing", that's just fine - now what do we call the pieces that ARE in the spirit of the terms? And once we settle on these new terms, we, as patrons of an art, must hold fast to these new terms, using them as intended, and holding others to their proper use.
 
Hi Brian,

You are a true renissance man, a patron of the arts.

If you would have been around 30 years ago when the guys who formed the Knifemakers Guild, you could have made quite an impact.

Brian, the founders of the Guild were simply men of their times not a "think tank". Who could these makers have possibly concieved of what would exist today.

Remember in the early 70's, we didnt have personal computers, CNC machines, laser cutting, wire, water jet cutters, titanium, carbon fiber, 440V, 420V, Talonite, Damascus, liner locks, pocket clips, etc.

So it's not that any of this was done for pure commercializtion. It was and still is a way to give collectors and makers a common language. A way to communicate about knives so that most understand what is being said. Even though they may not agree with what is being said.

As we have read over and over again, many here disagree with my definintions of using the word custom to describe a catagory. However, when I am on the phone, emailing or talking at a show with a customer, we have at least a basis to start a conversation.

Remember, just because someone has what they think is the "WAY" it should be written or done. Remember Edsel Ford in the 50's had created the defintive family car.. The Edsel.
It turned out to be one of the worst failures in the car industry ever.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor"
Albert Einstein
 
Hey - were you patronizing me?
wink.gif


Honestly, I mention commercialization only because it's important. If knives weren't being bought and sold, there wouldn't be much art left around to patronize! If I thought that sole authored handmades were the only knives worth owning, I wouldn't be dropping such serious coin on Spydies and such!

And the fact that times have changed is why this discussion remains so lively and vital. It should be revisited, often, and publicly, in order to keep the spirit of the art alive, along with enabling people to buy and sell with confidence and value. As you mention, we, as fellow rennaisance men,
wink.gif
need to
lay the foundation for the common language! I only wish that more people were able to lay aside the above mentioned stigma, and address the terminology with care and honesty.

Men like Darrel, Tim, and Dave Broadwell (I know there are many, many more that I leave out, but these guys do lots of art work in particular, and they came to mind as immediately recognizable) need to be noted for what they do, and failing to seperate their special, significant works, even from the beautiful series work they themselves do, is to deny their art a recognition (not "the" recognition - they should be recognized on many levels) that it deserves.
 
Brian,Les
Thanks for the out allowing me to make both. I enjoy the one offs and the numbered sets of knives both .
Art - one of a kind knives start to look all
the same if that is all a maker makes. True some have a certain look to the one of a kind knives they make and stay in that realm. The unique knives take time to develope - that really make a different tangent type look for a maker, are the true one of a kind knives. Thats the fun of new creations.
A stopping point (building a number knife)is a welcome break for the brain to think of new ideas for one of kind knives that are really one of a kind. Ideas happen along the way to the new creation this way instead of being a forced issue.
Good things come from one of a kind knives. Most often parts of the design and learning processes are used down the line in some twisted way.

Just my .02 cents worth..


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 08-24-2000).]
 
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