What is a "forged" blade???

Rick Baum

Rick Baum

Joined
Mar 14, 2000
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509
I have been watching/participating in another thread and this subject came up. Sounds simple enough... You get a piece of steel, heat it up, hammer on it until it resembles a knife, right? It seems that it's really not that simple. The ABS has something called a performance test for anyone wanting to become a rated smith. So, performance needs to be part of the equation at least as far as the ABS is concerned. I agree, performance is very important in regards to a forged blade. After all, what's the point of the forging exercise if you end up with a blade that is only as good or worse than a blade that was stock removed from the same steel? If a blade is forged to shape, it's nothing more than ornamental iron if it won't perform. Like a good friend of mine told me the other night "you might as well put it on a pillow and just look at it". So, is there a minimum requirement for a blade to be considered forged? I emailed this question to the ABS but the reply that I got was only the Master Smith's opinion that answered my question. The answer I got was that the blade edge should be forged to within the thickness of a nickel while maintaining the ABS standard for performance (not an exact quote), but then it was just one Master Smith's opinion. It seems that there is not a written standard even within the ABS. That's kind of shocking to me. Is forging to shape more important than forging to achieve performance? What degree of "Forged to Shape" is enough to be considered forged? Hmmm???

Rick
 
Joss,

Sometimes you need to count your worms to know how many fish you can catch. I don't know what the hell that means, but sometimes worm counting can be fun.;)

As far as naming the MS... Let's just say that he's a ranking official at the ABS. At this point it really doesn't matter who it was as much as he didn't quote anything from the by-laws to back up his opinion (I specifically asked about the by-laws). Again, I'm really suprised. I thought that there would be more structure behind the teaching and promoting. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing the ABS. They have done a lot of good for the knife community. I think that it's an organization with great potential. But I'm finding like in anything else, there's always room for improvement.
 
I think that even among MS there's a wide dispersion on how nitpicky the smiths are when forging. Some will finish their forging with something that looks like a very rough blank, and some with something on which very little stock removal needs to be done.
 
joss,

That's exactly why I started this little journey by emailing the ABS and then starting this thread. In the other thread that I referred to in my original post there were some strong opinions about the subject. Now that I know that the ABS doesn't necessarily have anything on paper, I thought it would be interesting to see what we can come up with on the forum.
Unfortunately most of the "big hitters" are getting ready for the Blade Show and may not have the time to chime in right away. Hopefully we can still have an interesting conversation.

Rick
 
I think your answer could lie in the Texarkana College/ABS/Bill Moran School of Bladesmithing, Introduction to Bladesmithing manual written by Jay Hendrickson. Obviously each maker is an individual who is free to modify the methods in order to suit himself. It is not meant to be an authoritative document, it is simply a how to. If I am not mistaken, the book is available on the ABS website.

Regards,
Brett
 
OK, perhaps I can shed some light on this. Forged to shape means just that, but to rough shape obviously. The statement of forging to the thickness of a nickle at the edge is pretty accurate. Forging much thiner than that can be damaging to the steels performance due to decarburization. While forging, scale is created when free oxygen in the forge ( the forge would need to be "tuned" to get rid of this), or open air reacts with the hot steel. Scale is basicly lost carbon along with some iron and what ever elements are in the steel if it is an alloy. When forging, the smith must leave enough of a "skin" on the steel to protect what will be left for the final blade from loosing too much carbon. A good smith at any level can easily control carbon loss by forging at lower temperatures.

Steel performance is enhanced by forging if it is done correctly. This is why the ABS has performance tests. An improperly forged blade will never pass the rigors of the ABS test.

The performance enhancement comes primarily from grain refinement, then grain alighnment and finally from structural features few stock removal makers incorporate like distal taper. Some stock removal makers do taper their blades, but it is not as prevelent as in forged blades.

Forging is not all that difficult. To forge a blade very close to shape requires basic blacksmithing skills. That being said, how perfect is perfect? The best smiths are the ones who can repeat set tolerances over the anvil. Contol of heat and forging a structuraly sound blade are the main concerns. Simply heating up a piece of steel and hamering it is forging, but not in the sense that you are providing beneficial qualities to the steel.

There is a lot of this information in print. Jim Hrisolas' ( I hope I spelled that right)books are a good source on this subject. The ABS also has documentation on this information through the Bladesmithing school. Exact dimensions are not going to be found due to the extensive amount of variables involved in forging. From how much oxygen is in the atmosphere of the forge to the elevation above sea level where the forging is being done to how long it takes the smith to finish the process. Forging is really more art than science. Each smith's practices may vary, but if you look closely, they all fall within sound practices for forging.
 
Bailey,

Good post! Some of this stuff can get very complicated but you make it easier to understand. All forged blades are not created equal, proper forging makes all the difference. As long as the desired properties are drawn from the steel, how closely to shape the blade was forged shouldn't matter.

-Jose
 
Hello Bailey.. Thanks for your response. It makes sense, but I'm still wondering at what point a blade considered forged or not. I guess what I'm getting at is this. If I take a piece of 1 1/8" round stock (5160) and heat and hammer it down to a 1/4" X 1 1/2" billet. Then, I take that billet and hammer out the profile and distal taper of a blade but I leave the blade bevels to be ground out, will that knife be considered forged by the ABS, collectors or anyone else of consequence? What if I just forge a point and no distal taper or blade bevels? What if I just reduce the stock and grind out the whole blade and I end up with a blade that will pass the ABS performance test, would that be considered forged. This is a long shot, but what if I could take the piece of 5160 that underwent forging processes at the steel mill in which it was created and stock remove a blade and through very careful HT create a blade that will pass the ABS performance test, would that be considered as a forged blade? You see where I'm going? There has to be a point at which a blade is considered forged or not. I don't think that a blade necessarily has to forged to within the thickness of a nickel to be considered forged. The ABS teaches forging to shape, close shape for that matter, but apparently there is nothing official that says that in order for a blade to be considered forged it has to be forged to within a certain percentage of a finished blade. How could that be measured even if they did stipulate a requirement. I have the ABS intro to Bladesmithing guide written by Jay Hendrickson. It describes how to forge a blade and recommends forging to no less than 1/16" at the edge. No less than 1/16". That leaves things open to interpretation, and I don't think that the book necessarily qualifies as the ABS requirements. It's reads as more of a recommendation. So far, I am reducing the stock to a manageable size billet and forging a point and distal taper but grinding in the blade bevels. I have been able to produce a blade that I am very confident will pass the ABS performance tests. Is it forged? I think so. But I know there are purists out there that don't.

Jose...

As long as the desired properties are drawn from the steel, how closely to shape the blade was forged shouldn't matter.
Click to expand...

My feelings exactly. Thanks.

Rick
 
Jose & Rick


Baileys post about grain size & structural alignment in both this and the other thread is key to the performance of the blade. From what I have observed, if it is not forged well into the upper range of the final blade shape (All aspects), then the chances of it passing an ABS performance test is between slim and none. The Master Smiths will not give you a set formula or exact percentage, since all steels are not equal. In the end, knife performance is the ultimate judge. Will it do the complete job, yes or no?

We all have heard/ read about Mr someone passing the ABS blade performance test with anything from a cardboard stick to a chain saw bar, never a name or place or time to go with it. Believe this if it makes you happy, I have to see evidence first.

I'll pass on the advice received from and old blacksmith back in the 1940s, "Forge it as close as you can, that gives the best results.Grinding it to shape can make it look as good. Just don't come around here crying about blade failure when you knew better".(Translation from sweedish, so not word for word.) He also used some four letter words in there that are not all that nice. Also at times,used to describe a 13year old (Me) when things didn't go the way he liked!
So far nothing I have seen makes his advice wrong.

:)
 
Rick,

It sounds like what you are doing is sufficient for grain reduction and alighnment. That is what is most important. But I have to ask, why stop before the bevels are forged? You can save a bunch of material, belts and time let alone gain a little more performance. Your blade probably will pass the performance test, but please don't stop there. You can make a balde that will pass the test twice if you really try, perhaps more. One of the defining charactieristics of good smiths is their desire to push the limits ofn their blade's performance. Why bother with forging if that is not your goal? It is hot work, dirty and requires extra equipment. I am sure you want top notch performance from your blades, so let me finish with urging you to forge the flats or bevels on your blades. Do a couple each way and test them. See for yourself which you prefer.
 
Just to play the devil's advocate... ;) :D ;)

My understanding is that you only get grain refinement / alignment benefit when you forge down from a *very* thick piece, not when you forge from the normal stock you can buy at Admiral, etc. I've got no direct experience, but that's what I learned from other MS'. It's very possible I'm mistaken, and I'd love to get more info on that.

Also, I think that a big part of the grain refinement comes from normalizing cycles, which you can (and should) do when doing stock removal. I think of this more as part of the heat treatment - required whatever the method you use - than of forging per se.

So, unless I've misunderstood, the only benefit of forging is when you forge down from *very* big stock, with a huge reduction in cross section. Proper shaping (distal taper) and HT (normalization, etc) can and should be part of the construction of a knife whatever the method used.

Finally, I think that the potential for screwing up the steel is much larger when forging. Grain growth, stress fractures, decarb, all are more likely to occur during forging than stock removal.

Personally I choose to forge (as a hobby) because of the satisfaction in brings *me*, as well as the romantic aspect of it. It's also more "elegant" than stock removal because it's less wasteful, in steel, abrasives, and time. You can manipulate the metal in different directions quickly without the need to waste a large chunck of steel.

For example, a good smith could forge say a D-guard integral bowie using punches, hot-cutters, tongs, and wasting very little (comparatively) material, while a stock removal will have to go from a huge block of steel and waste a big part of it. It is a medium term goal of mine to get to the point when I can do this.

JD
 
Pete & Bailey,

Thanks for your replies. If you guys say that you've found the closer you forge to shape, the better performance you get from your blades, I definitely believe you. I just wonder how much forging it a little bit less would effect performance, and if it's possible that differing methods might make a difference as to how much performance is lost. Maybe after I have a greater understanding of the processes involved it'll make more sense to me? Hopefully... :D

-Jose
 
This is an interesting discussion. I'm really enjoying the various perspectives of those who have contributed thus far.

Though we've seen several "what is custom," and "what is handmade" threads, I don't recall seeing a "what is forged" thread in this forum. That said, before this boils down to pure semantics, I'd like to quote the dictionary definition of the verb:

From the American Heritage Dictionary:
FORGE v. tr. To form (metal, for example) by heating in a forge and beating or hammering into shape.
Click to expand...

This definition seems to emphasize a process of forming, but says nothing of the actual goal of doing so.

When talking about forging, it seems, there are two discussions.

The first discussion seems to focus on the how and what of forging itself.

The second discussion, and perhaps the more interesting one, concerns itself with the why of forging. It is the goal that the process seeks to achieve that may ultimately provide the answer to baumr's original question. At the end of the day, the number of hammer blows, the amount of time on the anvil, and the number of heats in the forge all get lost in the true meaning of what it is the smiths do, and why they do it.
 
The why of forging is the important part as far as I am concerned. From everything that I know about forging it improves the grain structure and the performance of steel. That in itself is enough reason to forge.

As far as how much forging is needed; I guess enough to get these performance and grain structure improvements. Does this mean that it has to be to final shape? No, but then again, it doesn't hurt to do so either, unless you get the edge too thin. You do not want to decarbonize the edge of the blade.

Bailey has stated it perfectly:

One of the defining charactieristics of good smiths is their desire to push the limits of their blade's performance. Why bother with forging if that is not your goal?
Click to expand...
 
Keith and Bailey,

Thanks for your posts and encouragement. Not to worry about pursuing the maximum in the steel. Originally, I was attracted to forging partially because of the romance but there was always a part of me that knew that great things were possible with forging. As you both probably know I am fairly new to this sport. I have asked a lot of questions of people on the forum and because of all of you generous folks my first blade was a huge success. Now it's time for testing, testing and testing followed by more testing. My goal is to achieve the level of performance that Ed Fowler and Bill Burke have reached. So far I have ridden their coat tails to the level of success that I am enjoying thus far. I have a lot of different tests that I want to perform, one of which is forging in the blade bevels. I'm sure that there is a good possibility that it will help. Afterall, it's hard to look past the facts that Ed has published about percentage of reduction relating to measured performance. Every ounce of reduction helps when your using relatively small stock. Just don't get the edge too thin, right?

Rick
 
Pete: Frank Richtig made knives, stock removal, that out cut most of the forged blades being produced today. Harlan Suedemeier will be at The Blade Show, for a nominal price you can pick up one if Richtig's knives and test one yourself. I had one that made over 70 90 degree bends (all the same way) and returned to almost stratight before it broke.

Forged is easily qualified by stating the degree of stock reduction to arrive at the final shape.
There can be a lot more to it than simply forged to shape, most depends upon the testing the bladesmith uses to evaluate the perfromance qualities of his knives.

The testing requirements the ABS has standardizd have not been upgraded since Bill Moran wrote them, this is sad as we have learned a lot about the forged blade since that time. The present standards are OK for blades at the journeyman smith level, but there is a lot more that can be developed when the smith is so inclined.
 
Ed,

Thanks for your post. A couple of questions...

Do we know what type of steel Richtig used for his knives?

What is that formula for percentage of stock reduction again?

If I use a 1" round piece of 5160 and forge a blade that is 3/16" at the spine, what would my percentage of reduction be? I'm keeping a journal of all of my experiments and it would be great to compare my percentage of reduction to each blade's performance.

By the way, based on what I have learned so far, I'm not so sure that the Journeyman's test shouldn't be modified too. I don't think it's too far fetched to think a stock removal blade could pass the performance test with very careful HT and good selection of steel.


thanks,
Rick
 
Rick: I don't remember what steel it was, I have it in my notes somewhere. Rex did the analysis on some of Richtig's knives, and is sending me some of the same steel Richtig used, same vintige in the wrapper. We are going to see if I can duplicate the kind of performance he got out of it. I will do the performance stuff, Rex the Laboratory stuff. Should bve fun. Rex has analized some of Richtig's knives and has photomicrographs etc.

The formula is:
Start Size

___________ X 100


Finish Size

In your case, start size is 1" X 3.14. then figure the area of the triangle (blade) for finish size.
 
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