What is a knife maker?

The point wasn't anything about life or death. It wasn't about suppressing or stifling anything. It was about the unique combination of qualities such as skill, inherent talent, intelligent creativity and a pursuit of excellence over mediocrity, that those are the marks of the craftsman or artist. Not everybody possesses those attributes. Not everybody is creative in that "overplus" way that fine art and fine craftsmanship will normally express itself.
Just because we think were capable of something and then we assume we are something doesn't make it so, ie. the butcher. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and that's how craftsmanship, whether expressed in a knife a saddle or a gun, etc. is shown to validate it's claim. By those characteristics above being so obvious in it's construction and look.
This is not a new idea. Our predecessors took these thing for granted and insisted they were true.
A friend of mine is a member of the prestigious CA artists group, Loren Entz, artist par excellence, google him. He told me once that as a beginner he took art courses in college. He said that he had to relearn so much on his own later. Why? because, and this is TYPICAL, not the exception, in modern art schools, the attitudes (philosophy) that governs how art schools teach art discourage or are even antagonistic towards realism because they don't like objectivity. I believe they find it threatening to their claims of talent. So... they take the stance that "everybody is an artist and equally talented" and any traditional ideas about what constitutes true art are anathema to that school of thot. I mean, if you can' draw a horse well, evidently you show that you are more talented than someone who cannot. But if you can't draw well, if objective standards that help distinguish between mediocrity vs excellence in any piece of art ( which is always a reflection of talent by the way) are diacarded than we can comfortably believe every drawing or painting ever made is fine art. That was my point. This applies to the skilled crafts as well.
I'm all for everyone liking what they like (or the reverse) but I'm mostly for those who are never really content with mediocrity in their work.
I don't believe it is futile because, as I believe these principles and ideas are true, I believe those who imbibe them, and can apply them to their "natural" talent, they will improve that talent. That's the legacy to leave IMO and I think it's very relevant to the serious knifemaker.
 
> But if you can't draw well, if objective standards that help distinguish between mediocrity vs excellence in any piece of art ( which is always a reflection of talent by the way) are discarded than we can comfortably believe every drawing or painting ever made is fine art. That was my point. This applies to the skilled crafts as well.

I hear what you are saying, and I agree some so called art is shit.

But, then again people thought of this about Van Gough during his life and some currently believe this as well about Picasso, Dali and Matisse

The point is "Art" is in the eye of the beholder.
 
The pure beauty of art is that there are no universal standards to what makes it art. Sure, there are varying degrees of EFFORT, and desire to hone one's skill to produce what they believe to be an artistic piece, but you can't project your own standards of art on someone else and expect to agree. Art is defined by the individual.
 
It is true that humans are creative in a general sense. It's without question part of our human nature. But not all people fit into the category of being "creatives", writers, actors, artists, musicians, inventors, etc., etc.. Makers of finely constructed as well as beautifully concieved and adorned objects fit this category as well, note Mr. Peter Carl Faberge.
Watch a youtube video of Jordon Peterson being interviewed in front of a live audience by a Canadian art museum curator, search his name on the subject creativity. Very interesting. Jordon simply points out what has been known and taken for granted by humans from all our past. The curator acknowledges it as well that not everyone is creative in that way that makes for artists, and I include craftsmen of fine knives as well.
 
Who believes truth is truth because it's truth to me. If I believe something it's necessarily true. Believe it or not some people actually consider that true. That is the same as saying that art is defined by the individual. My position is that "art defines the person" (but it must be art in the first place). Another way of putting it is that the obvious skill and talent evident in a particular knife, for example, as compared to another that was obviously poorly done for lack of skill and talent shows the "skill and talent" of the craftsman. In the former postulate, regardless of whether it exhibits obvious skill or talent, since the person feels or believes that it IS art makes it art. Artistic skill and talent then have been "believed" or completely re-defined out of existence. They mean nothing. Archaic and then useless. That is a relatively modern development of thot towards the arts and crafts. It doesn't reflect the thinking of thousands of years of human thot. History about the arts make that very clear.
This is still relevant to the skilled maker of knives.
 
>The curator acknowledges it as well that not everyone is creative in that way that makes for artists,

Not everyone claims to be an "artist"

And just because I do not like the work of some Artist , does not mean they are not one.

Art is an expression of an individual, I may agree or disagree to their ability and creativity that goes into that art. But, my opinion nor anyone else, in any way has the authority to discredit their feelings that it is art.
 
Picasso, the father of cubism, was in his early career a well trained and talented draftsman, the traditional word denoting drawing. He could and did draw and paint pictures that could be judged on their merit as accurate representatipns of what he saw. The prerequisite of the claim to talent as an artist. He bacame tired of the "tyranny of the thing as seen", as he put it and "forged" a new form and school of painting. Jackson Pollock, I read in a biography of his life and career was frustrated as a young hopeful, studying and being mentored by more accomplished artists, he was constantly frustrated and finally disillusioned with his inability to draw well and decided to "forge" a new style of painting.
The modernist critics of the day, who hated both tradition and objective standards, hailed both as visionary. The art critics, since the late 18th and early 19th, have largely been the force responsible for the acceptance of "modern art" being considered good, if not superior art to traditional art. That is a bit of history. The take away? Don't let those who advocate that skill, talent, intelligent creativity, excellence and objective standards don't matter and are to be discarded, don't let that form your idea of what art is. Why not?? Because then you will believe "art" is in the eye of the beholder.

"Beauty is altogether in the eye of the beholder", according to Lewis Wallace but all art or craft involves a thoughtful and evident skill.
 
Avigil, I notice the knife in your avatar, even in the small image of an avatar, it obviously looks finely made in the attention to detail, symmetry of profile, how the edges and finished surface is treated. It's a simple, uncluttered design but you intended that. The saying, "simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" which has been attributed to Leonardo Da Vinci fits your little knife I think. You may wonder, what's your point?? First of all, that's what I honestly think of that knife (whether you made it or not). Secondly, it exhibits the characteristics that define an obvious level of craftsmanship. That's what makes that knife a piece of craftsmanship with a simple pleasing aesthetic, regardless of what you or I think of it. IMHO!
 
Right each person gets to determine what is "Art" to them.

The reality is no one has the authority to determine what art is or is not to others.
 
Each person is entitled to their opinion. If that's what you mean by the word determine I sure agree. I like to keep always in mind though, that just because I think a piece of art is good or a knife is as well, that doesn't make it so. That's the type of existentialism that denies the reality of the difference between skill and unskilled, good work and poor work, talent and gifting as well. As you noted earlier I believe, some art is "shit". In that we're agreed. I just don't think our opinons are the "standard" by which to judge it.
 
AVigil said:
Right each person gets to determine what is "Art" to them.

The reality is no one has the authority to determine what art is or is not to others.
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I concur.
I would also argue that no one has the right to tell someone that they are not an artist.
When it comes to knifemaking for the most part a design is drafted out first, that is art, even if it's just conceptualized in the mind it's art, then the art of grinding the shape then the art of finishing and then handle and sheath and so on. Every aspect is an art form unique in application.

The flow a maker has in every step to completion is art, otherwise it would simply be random chaos and even then chaos is art too just look up at a starry sky at night.
First and foremost to me a knifemaker is an artist then craftsman, consider Walter Brend, one of the greatest freehand grinders, pure art in the way he moves metal.

Anyway I'm not trying to uphold an argument as to what is art I am simply saying I believe every human is an artist and as a human I would be very insulted if someone tried to say I wasn't an artist simply because they don't believe that what I contribute is art.

Expression of any kind is art. Verbal, Visual, Physical and as humans we do that every day in every way.
 
Here's another way to make the fundametal point concerning the importance of skill as an identifier of a valid claim to craftsman such as knifemaker.

In an art show that I followed recently, the judge chose for best of show a graphite drawing, a very well done picture of a bucking bull. It was a vignette (it didn't go edge to edge). Since it was representing a real animal it could be judged whether the artist had the eye to faithfully record an accurate looking animal. Anyone can scribble out what they can imagine and claim "you can't say it's poor art because you didn't see what I saw, so you can't judge it's art worthiness" (alot of so called art today, no standards apply). This piece showed skill and talent as far as that can be dwmonstrated by a black and white drawing. It was a piece of "fine art". The problem though was that there were several paintings there that all things being equal, introduced a complexity in their design that went above and beyond merely a "grey tones" treatment. Their compisition was more complex as well going edge to edge. Making a piece of art is a complex, and necessarily thoughtful exercise. Good art isn't just quickly and thoughtlessly scribbled out. Making a drawing is concerned over values, line, design, mass shapes, among other things and a pleasing or impacting arrangement of all that on a 1 dimensional surface. Not everyone will be talented to do this well. What are the criteria, the standards, the "principles" that a judge of art should know and apply to his choice so that he can avoid allowing his personal bias and arbitrary opinion to determine awarding best of show? The more difficult a piece is because of introducing color as well as value the more skill the artist must have. Any acomplished and serious artist who has worked in both black and white as well as color will confirm the greater difficulty of achieving accurate values in color vs black and white. The old art schools never taught color before giving their students a good foundation of rendering accurate values in pencil. Then they could learn to get their color values easier.
In the current art climate measuring skill has gone out the window, even in some traditional western art shows. Skill is measureable and is just one of the objective standards by which to judge a well made knife from a poorly made one. Markers of skill are not that esoteric.
 
Yep, there is a lot of shitty art out there, but it is art non the less
 
ARTIST said:
Here's another way to make the fundametal point concerning the importance of skill as an identifier of a valid claim to craftsman such as knifemaker.

In an art show that I followed recently, the judge chose for best of show a graphite drawing, a very well done picture of a bucking bull. It was a vignette (it didn't go edge to edge). Since it was representing a real animal it could be judged whether the artist had the eye to faithfully record an accurate looking animal. Anyone can scribble out what they can imagine and claim "you can't say it's poor art because you didn't see what I saw, so you can't judge it's art worthiness" (alot of so called art today, no standards apply). This piece showed skill and talent as far as that can be dwmonstrated by a black and white drawing. It was a piece of "fine art". The problem though was that there were several paintings there that all things being equal, introduced a complexity in their design that went above and beyond merely a "grey tones" treatment. Their compisition was more complex as well going edge to edge. Making a piece of art is a complex, and necessarily thoughtful exercise. Good art isn't just quickly and thoughtlessly scribbled out. Making a drawing is concerned over values, line, design, mass shapes, among other things and a pleasing or impacting arrangement of all that on a 1 dimensional surface. Not everyone will be talented to do this well. What are the criteria, the standards, the "principles" that a judge of art should know and apply to his choice so that he can avoid allowing his personal bias and arbitrary opinion to determine awarding best of show? The more difficult a piece is because of introducing color as well as value the more skill the artist must have. Any acomplished and serious artist who has worked in both black and white as well as color will confirm the greater difficulty of achieving accurate values in color vs black and white. The old art schools never taught color before giving their students a good foundation of rendering accurate values in pencil. Then they could learn to get their color values easier.
In the current art climate measuring skill has gone out the window, even in some traditional western art shows. Skill is measureable and is just one of the objective standards by which to judge a well made knife from a poorly made one. Markers of skill are not that esoteric.
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I honestly don't think you understand. Virtually everyone here has arranged and taken pics of their knives, that is art and so they are artists. Now apply that to pretty much every person on the planet with a cell phone, they all take pics and that is art, they are all artists and that doesn't include other artistic contributions they do every day.
Being an artist is no longer a mystical thing shrouded in personal tragedy or techincal expertise.
You simply want to argue semantics instead of seeing the whole picture.
Everyone is an artist and promoting that in them is far better than arguing the opposite and quashing their ideals for self improvement and well being.

I'm done with this it's like talking to a brick that I sculpted with my bare hands then made a painting of and then took a picture of then wrote a poem about then made a song of it then filmed a musical about it then bought a steel mine then made more bricks then built a forge then burned it all to make a knife just so I can call myself a craftsman.

Have fun with life man, you are way too worried about the small stuff.
 
Virgil, an ancient and important Greek poet said this, " Practice and thought might gradually forge many an art". I like how he put that. One of the things I've noticed, since being artistic myself and rubbing shoulders with artists, as well as personally knowing a handfull of very gifted artists (considered by their peers upper eschelon painters in their chosen genres), is that they might good naturedly humor the idea that "everything" we do (or can do) is art and the corollary idea that flows out of that, everyone is an artist, but privately as well as in practice they don't believe it.
That goes for the saddle makers I know personally as well. I live near Cody, Wy. A world class saddle maker and aquaintance, Keith Seidel, would not consider every person, because they make something with their hands necessarily a fine or competent craftsman. My own son, who is an accomplished saddle maker himself, has only achieved that level of craftsmanship and artistic skill by having an inherently unique talent. By hard work and perseverance he has reached the skill level he's achieved up to this point. Ross Brunk, saddle maker. Look him up on FB. This is my first shameless brag.
The gear makers of the TCCAA. Bit and spur makers, rawhide braiders, saddlemakers and silver engravers.
It's true, there is a broad range or different levels of ability among those individuals that belong in that category "artist or artisan", but there is that category.

Yes their is alot of bad art out there. But they are not Artists that are making it.
 
If you make art knives, you are an artist, if you make using knives, you are a craftsman.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
If you make art knives, you are an artist, if you make using knives, you are a craftsman.

Hoss
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"Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in"
You just blew my mind.
So if I use an art knife it becomes a craftsman's knife and if I never use a craftsman's knife it becomes an art knife?
Glad we cleared that up.
Phew that was a close one almost went spiraling into a sprawling chasm of the knife abyss.
 
I wonder who sculpted that statue? An unskilled, untalented, untrained man? I'll bet anybody can do that. I couldn't help myself. Just funnin. Actually Hoss makes a distinction that those before the middle of the 1900s would not see as odd or out of place. Knives made to "use", plain and spartan in their look like the knives packing plants use to process meat carcasses are crafted. The oldtimers who made that kind of knife by hand before mass production or in a factory on machinery in later years were skilled enough to to that. That would make them craftsmen but that doesn't class them with those who with an overplus of talent make a thing of beauty as well as utility. The melding of craft with art.
 
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