What is a Martial Arts Blade? What is Traditional?

M

munk

Joined
Mar 22, 2002
Messages
15,742
I think the first answer is anything you put into your hands. But I'm no martial artist.

HI makes a Gelbu Special, a Chitlangi, Sirupate, Malla, and probably some others I'm not thinking of after only one cup of coffee. Many of these blades, from approx 15" to 22", approach 1 oz per inch of blade length. By all reports, both from 'real' martial artists, and guys like Rusty and me, this makes for a very quick handling and well balanced blade. How many of you have handled one of these blades, 18" and only 20 oz or so?

The weightier specimens would be like my own 19.5" Chitlangi at 25 oz, a little more than an oz per inch. Certainly there are Sirupates, Gelbus, and others that at 18" are about 24 oz. I mention this because these numbers are very close to the British WWl and ll's that have been lauded as 'real'.

When you add 4 oz to that, you get what I think is the all around khuk- 18" and 28 oz. It chops wood yet still is a good self defense tool.

So what is a martial arts blade? HI has blades lighter than the British WWll, with less width of blade and a thicker stronger spine. HI has blades the same weight as the British WWll. With Yvsa's Cherokee special, and the new Foxy Folly, and even a couple recent additions we've seen on Yangdu's DOD pages, (20" and 24 oz with a broad leaf blade) HI has blades that closely resemble the British WWll, and are in keeping with 'traditional khukuri' style and production.

Are martial art blades defined as strictly British, as some are want to insist upon? Those designs were evolutions of khuk designs already present. Are real khukuris defined as only British?

Are martial arts blades dependant upon a rigid adherence to British Form? Does a martial arts blade have to have a curved handle and traditional bolster? We could have an entire seperate thread on handle shape. Like a lot of you, I enjoy my HI khuks that have gently curved handles- not disimilar in feel to the plow handle of the single action revolver. But I also enjoy my straight handled HI khuks. Why? Because the shapes determine striking style. I have a Hanshee model that fits all the criteria of a 'real' khuk, 18.5 ", curved horn handle, 24 oz, traditional bolster and no cho creep. The truth is as beautiful as the shape becomes to the eye, I'm not sure it wouldn't handle a little better with a straighter grip. I've got heavier AK's that feel very substancial and controlled while chopping, in part to the straighter grip.

I suggest very humbly, that within the wide variation of HI khukuris, there is a model and specimen for everyone and every known khuk use. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Much has been made by some few vocal agitators of the 'thick spines'. Let's look at that for a moment. First, not all HI khuks have such a spine, though in general HI is built better than the British military low bid contracts. Metal costs money. If in an effort to 'traditionalize' all the HI product line, the stronger spines were lost, how then would that affect our famous wood cutting models?

Would we wish to lose some of our variety so that HI blades were all 'traditional'? Would that be a good thing?
No, it would not.

HI makes two versions of a American Bowie and one of a JKM- puko; should HI not make these things because they are not 'traditional' as seen from the American South or Norweigan shores?

It has been said that a quarter inch more of 'cho creep' and the balance is completely off from a 'traditional British' blade. Does anyone truly believe moving an insignificant amount of metal forward or backwards would render a blade off balance? Beam me up, Scottie.

The Habaki bolster. Many HI khuks have these. Many do not. Of those that do, is there any evidence to suggest a higher failure rate? If that evidence is there, and I haven't seen it, but I've only been around since late 2001, (registered 2002) how much more of a failure rate? .001?

Yvsa and others have discussed the potential for failure if the habaki bolster is not done right. I just haven't seen the failure. The entire subject has always seemed to me to be a tempest in a teapot; we like traditional bolsters, but the habakis work fine. And HI makes traditional khuks with all the features claimed to be 'traditional', including the bolster, blade and handle shape, weight and length.

I'm not a khukuri expert. I'm a tool user, like Satori. I appreciate having the traditional available here, and I appreciate having modern versions of older forms for me to use as well. Because I like tools that work. If I were a martial artist, I do not believe for one second that my entire form and training would be illegitimate if I used anything other than a British WWll. I think that's just crazy on it's face.

I'd like HI to continue to do what it has done to become so successful; great tools, both modern adaptations and 'traditional', at a wonderful price and with a customer service policy at the top of the industry. I think that makes for a very fine tradition.


munk
 
munk said:
(big snip)

I suggest very humbly, that within the wide variation of HI khukuris, there is a model and specimen for everyone and every known khuk use. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.
(another snip)

I'd like HI to continue to do what it has done to become so successful; great tools, both modern adaptations and 'traditional', at a wonderful price and with a customer service policy at the top of the industry. I think that makes for a very fine tradition.


munk
Click to expand...

You're only saying that because it's.....TRUE! :D :D :D :D :D
 
Munk,

I completely agree. In fact I can imagine situations where a thick spine would be an asset in a martial blade. After all a Bowie is certainly no slouch for "personal defense" and no one has accused those as being light weight. I've got a movie model that might be termed a little heavy and slow, but with the balance, and upswept point (not to mention the false edge) I see it as a perfect MA blade. It even has the weight to turn a sword or staff stroke, or to bat aside a lead pipe or firearm barrel. Another form and function thing, regardless of "tradition"...
 
You're right munk, we're looking at a new tradition starting.

I'd like to set aside The martial arts zaniness and the Eurocentric philosopies for the moment, and look at what the Kami's are doing. I see smiths almost playing (if blacksmithing wasn't so much work). They're literally putting their own personal stamp on 'traditional' and new forms of edged tools. Do you even have to read who the maker of a particular item every time you see a new piece come up for sale. or do you recognize a particular Kami's work?

This is an incredible opportunity for sharp object enthusiasts; we get to witness craftsmen each with a long family history behind them gather together and redefine one of their national symbols, and make some other stuff along the way. Not only that, we get to buy what they make at a great price to keep it going.

Ultimately the Kamis know what is and is not a Khukuri, and what it should look like.
 
You may like the Uncle Bill Especial too, a kind of baby brother to the Movie Model. I'd forgotten about both of those and I own each!!!

One could have another thread entirely- on the amazing special models HI offers.

HI is simply outstanding. More models, more 'custom' features, the best of East and West. I've actually taken HI for granted. I forgot the wonder I felt when I first arrived and looked over the entire line.

Dan Koster brought the Pen. Yvsa brought the Cherokee Rose, the Cherokee Special, and has been instrumental in the Foxy Folly. We have knife makers interacting with the Kamis. We have Kamis free to make what their imaginations tell them.


munk
 
Martial arts blade preferences vary depending on the style of the fighter.
As far as thick spines, in my system that is good because the blade is also used as a striking weapon for blocks, counter to blade, counter to other weapons, as well as strikes (with a hammer type power).
Fast yes that is important but fast while being very maneuverable is what is most importantso the thinner blades are preferred.
The Khukuri is not a replacement for a sword and it does not make a good sword so the longer blades are not that good to use. 15" to 22" is the common length with 15" more common but for me 18" works about right.

But don't limit the question to only Khukuri, many of the other HI blades are very good weapons for martial arts use.
 
One of the things I love about HI is how fluid it is in its designs. Think about it. We have some of the best production smiths in the world hammering out these blades, by hand, with a very very small failure rate. Furthermore, these men of iron and fire are largely uneducated. They cannot read nor write in their own language, but they do know the language of steel. Somehow, they are able to take the demands of a largely spoiled western populous on the other side of the planet, blades concocted from dreams and hollywood, and turn them into a 95% reality.
I love khuks. I love the traditional models of the WWII fronts like the M43. I also like the straight handled big GRS for my working khuk because it feels better to me. Howeve, my favorite blades typically are the specials. I love my AKB, my Rose, and my Khukrambit. I love my Everest Kat and my Seax(pl?). I love that the kamis can take the ideas of 2 dozen men, several lifetimes of study and passion, and turn them into a love-child of traditional khuks and western flair.
Could you imagine a more beautiful yet functionally deadly bowie than the Cherokee Rose? What about the Khukrambit? That thing is a pocket nightmare for SD. "Hey look! I'm an unexpecting target!..oops, nope, i mean I'm a ticked off raptor with a claw that can tear through your car door." Freakin' cool!:)
I love HI. i have been a fan and buyer from this company pretty much exclusively for over 3 years now. If it wasn't an HI it was a Victorinox or Leatherman. That's pretty much the only companies that I feel can give ME the most value for my $. I will continue to buy HI until it shuts its doors or they put me in the ground. Honestly, for all the good that it has done, I hope it is the latter.
What a great place. Great thread, Munk.

Jake
 
Fast yes that is important but fast while being very maneuverable is what is most importantso the thinner blades are preferred>>>> Azis

If you took two blades of roughly the same length and weight, but one was less broad with a thicker spine, and one was thinner and broader in shape, what difference do you have in martial arts application?

Seems like that would be personal preference.

munk
 
It seems to me that the person is the dangerous or capable thing, and various tools are used to accomplish objectives. Some people train with one tool. Others train with many tools.


Some people will change tools to fit the objective.

Consider:

Defending a castle wall.

Fighting an armoured opponent.

Walking through a strange city.

Performing a kata for show.

A march through a jungle.

The specialist will use the one tool he favors. The generalist may change tools.

The specialist may be quite formidable. Remember the old saying "Beware the man with only one gun. He probably knows how to use it."
 
I don't think anyone can argue that the kami's can make whatever style or preference they wish.

Whether they want to or not is a completely different issue.
 
But some of it is easy to see.
If you take a 15" sirupate and a 15" Ak the sirupate will make a better fighter for a fast maneuvering style. The Ak might be better for a standard simple chopping style.

A larger difference could be seen in a sirupate vs a pen
 
Sorry I'm late to the party- I just read much of the recent training thread with Simon and Co, and commented.

Since I've trained in a Japanese style, I can pick whatever blade I think works for me, since Nepalese blades aren't traditional for Japanese MA, anyway. :)

Personally, the 21" Chitlangi impressed me as being about the largest practical sword length in today's world. It was both powerful and quick. For fighting usage in shorter/small kuks, I've most appreciated my Shop 1 16.5 WWII and my 19" Chitlangi. Others have appreciated other blade styles more. We all have different bodies, abilities, and ideas. Use what works for you, and be happy. :)

John
 
Azis said:
But some of it is easy to see.
If you take a 15" sirupate and a 15" Ak the sirupate will make a better fighter for a fast maneuvering style. The Ak might be better for a standard simple chopping style.

A larger difference could be seen in a sirupate vs a pen
Click to expand...
Style is a key. Style may not just be something which an individual studies, but it may also be a function of temperment and body type. For instance, a small quick wiry guy might use a fast maneuvering style, while a big, strong, heavy guy might concentrate on using his power.

Of course, at the beginning style may be almost completely dictated by a teacher. When an individual matures, they may start to develop individual stylistic characteristics.

An army or a large group may be forced to standardize equipment. In that case they will probably gravitate towards a mean functionality that works for the average member of their population. That for instance, is why the 15" BAS is so generally useful, and also why (in its standard Nepalese form) the short handle makes the butt dig into many larger westerner's hands.

Hi has certainly adapted the khukuri to the population it sells to. I find the larger HI handles very comfortable, and a major selling point for me. They certainly are not traditional, in the sense that smaller Nepalese did not make very many large handles for their smaller hands. However, the essentials of the design have simply been adapted to a different population.

The same argument might be made for the weight of the blade, but another factor comes into play here. A blade optimised for combat with a human may not excel at general purpose camp tasks. The recent pictures of a damaged Foxy Folly Fighter illustrate this point. Some people may choose a compromise that is less quick than a dedicated fighter, and chops less well than a dedicated camp tool, but can perform all of the required tasks adequately. I think the modern BAS is such a compromise. Mortars, rifles, bombs, etc. have deemphasised the role of the knife in combat. However, the need for a utility blade remains. The BAS type model can do both functions quite well, and I suspect that is why it is a standard with some military units. Also, it's not too heavy, which makes a difference when you're packing it.
 
Use what you got and adapt accordingly.

I will concede that some blades are optimized as weapons. Think of daggers and swords. The khukuri is a primarily a tool however. Even his so-called Gurkha endorsers had their first exposure to khukuris in their tool capacity. But Simon and his ilk think that by calling a blade “martial” it is somehow made more lethal and deadly. That may be, but I for one would not want to be on the receiving end of any khukuri, whether it be one of HI’s tool-oriented knives, or Simon’s “martial” blades.

Perhaps calling a blade “martial” is merely a marketing ploy. For all we know the term “martial” is the British synonym for our term “tactical.”
 
Yep on all. Good stuff.

Martial means military. So, in the pure context, military issued blades/khukuries would be martial arts blades. In the more general use of the word, as a fighting art, it's good to know what works for you and better to be able to use whatever is handy- and a variety of sizes/types. Musashi said to have no preference in weapons, to be able to use them all.
 
If any of you ever meet a true martial artist and then you imagine which khukuri he could use well, you'll run out of theories fast.
Forget the shape, thickness and curve.
Forget the size of the man or how strong he is.
The only thing that matters is how you move your body.
When you're doing that right, you will be doing martial arts well, and it wont matter what you have in your hands.
I dont know why this seems to hard for people to grasp.
Your body is what matters, not the weapon.
Your skill is what matters, not your strength.
Strength is weakness.
A preference or belief concerning size or shape of weapons is a weakness.
Discard those things and set yourselves free.
 
I'm sticking with my ball-peen hammer...

It matches the way I move my body.

:D

Hey Danny...equally trained and motivated men of equal speed and size fight. One has a Khukuri and the other has a ball peen hammer...

Who wins?

I suggest it's the calm one...

.
 
Bri in Chi said:
Or the one with a friend with a rifle up on the roof...
:D
Click to expand...
of course, only if it is a traditional martial arts rifle used by nothing less than a black (with gold stars and silver spangles) belt in riflejitsu, wearing the traditional camouflage gilly suit and face paint.

WPB112%20Sniper%20Suit.jpg


comes with a free black (with gold stars and silver spangles) belt and certificate from the French institute of Riflejitsu.

unfortuneatly i've only got a brown belt. it's holding up my jeans at the moment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top