What is a quality feature of a well thought-out fighting knife?

H

Horus

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Apr 10, 2001
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I want to become clear in my mind about the quality features of a well thought-out fighting/selfdefense knife. I think at a knife that is not limited by the need to conceal it, wear comfort or weapon laws. Undoubtedly it should be a fixed blade but beyond it I am not quite sure about all the other criteria, such as overall/blade length, blade and handle design/materials and so on. The reason of my thoughts is, apart from a theoretical interest, that for some time past I try to design such a knife, but the more I think about this subject, the more I am in doubt about my thoughts.

Now to my question, what do you thing is a quality feature of a well thought-out fighting knife? Any opinions or suggestions, even though it relates only to detail, are most welcome!
 
It should look something like this:


Camillus CQB-1
cam-CQB1.jpg
 
One thing I think important is the feeling of the knife in hand. Am not even speaking about the grip/handle tho that is very important. Am talking more about the sense of weight, where the balance is, etc. I think you want a knife that is slightly handle heavy, so that the blade feels light and quick.
 
I concur with glockman99 that the CQB is a good fighting design, but would take the dagger design a little farther and say that a well designed dagger is hard to fault as a small fighter. A double edged blade will cut no matter which direction it is going, and the notion of grip changes becomes almost a non-issue. The spear point blade can provide a very strong tip. The linear design of the knife allows it to be effective and secure in both edge in and edge out grips. And, of course, it is an effective penetrator. Here's a fine example:

View


It is said in some circles that an eight inch blade is about the maximum for a close quarters fighter, but I don't subscribe to that notion. If you can forego concealment, a good carry system and some practice can allow you to draw a very big blade quickly in close quarters. In which case a ten to 18 inch blade can be ideal. With a larger blade, blade on blade parrying becomes possible, and a good double guard becomes an asset.

A good fighter should have a very sharp edge on it. I like an edge that is fairly wide and highly polished. The balance of the blade should be as neutral as possible, and as light as possible for quick movement. A slightly blade-heavy balance may be good also depending on fighting style, as this will allow the blade to cleave more deeply.

Jerry Hossom's Millenium Mega-bowie - 14.5"

img21.jpg


The Mad Dog Hellcat - around 16" I think:

hellcatkris.jpg


So summing up, the things that are good in a fighting blade are:

A handle that is very secure and comfortable in a wide variety of grips.

A center-line point for intuitive tip control and thrusting accuracy.

A strong tip and blade in general.

A double edge for versatility.

A fine, aggressive cutting edge.

Neutral balance, as close to the index finger as possible for quickness.

Length for reach and cutting power.

A generous guard, and possibly a double guard, on longer blades, for parrying.
 
Definitely double edged, at least at the tip. The Randall #1 is a beauty of a fighter. Point in line with the handle (makes for accurate thrusts), sharpened top edge, with full thickness of spine running some length of the blade. A nice strong, yet penetrative set up that still allows back cuts.

make sure the point is pointy! You don't want a point like on a Busse chopper. It is too rounded/large/not pointy (I am having trouble describing this!)

Aome kind of guard. Single, double, forward curved guard to act as a blade catch, whatever. As long as a guard exists.

No skimping out on the handle. I have held soem fixed blades and not liked how small the handle was. A good fighter has a good sized handle. Makes it easier to hang on to!

Here's the biggest tip: Best fighter is the one complementary to your training. I prefer certain movements because I am trained in them (partly the reason anyways) and so certain blades will lend themselves to my techniques better than others.

Good Luck horus!
 
Hi There!


I have this to say. Considering the purpose of a fighting knife... and that is to terminate with extreme prejudice. Details hardly matters when the intend of usage is there. Whilst I am no expert, I would have to say that it depends on the type of target you intend to engage. The environment in which you would have to work in. But more importantly the type of style in which you are trained for, if not at all. The single most important feature for a fighting knife is its "reach" and because of the conditions surrounding its legal employment, the efficiency of a politically correct blade length is most questionable. Without the ability to penetrate, it is my guess that an affair of this sort would probably be most uncomfortably messy. Anyone with an ice pick would be a better bet. With the introduction of knife proof vest and light weight amour, a slash isn't going to be as effective in the years to come. Penetration is the key. Work around a compromise of strong reinforced point and serrations.


Krizzard. out.
"...Whoever kills with the sword must be killed by the sword... "
- The New Testament, Revelation 13 :10
 
hmm..what other factors for a fighting knife?

-Sheer size as first (I'd say around 10 inch would be optimal)
-Speed, so you'll need a slender blade which is highly manouverable.
-Multifunctionality, where the dagger shape is best since you can cut both ways.
-fast drawing
-good grip
-capable of making the tiniest contact with opponent into a wound or fatality (which is why full serrated blade are better here)
-Capability to penetrate bone, such as skulls, ribs... so no 420J2 here.

These factors are not capable to be integrated in one knife, so it will have to be a compromise.

But other then that, the most important factors of a fighting knife, lie outside the knife itself.
Such as : the weapons/training of opponent, training of yourself, physical condition and other people around.

In reality, a fighting knife is a utopic item. Even a shovel is a far superior weapon, as is a tomahawk. Even a simple baseball bat or broomstick is more dangerous if in capable hands. If a guy if armed with 4 foot of steel chain.. how are you gonna attack him? you will need a gun, or be very capable in stickfighting.

personally, I think a hiking staff is a far superior weapon then a knife, and knives stay tools.

Greetz, bart.
 
I've gone combat/tactical for quite a while now. In design, first you have to decide what style blade. The point must allow for stabs, but be strong. So up to now I have stayed away from daggers, But from requests I've got one model coming out soon,with more to come.

This is what I've found over the years.I'm sure people will disagree.

What I call a combat knife is a heavy version of a fighter, because it could be used for prying, hammering, and everything else that a knife should not be used for.

Tacticals are smaller for hidden carry, 3-5 inch blades, with handes just big enough to get a comfotable grip. Because of size, don't have guards.

Guards don't have to be too big on a fighter, because when you block a blade there is a lot of "bounce" and with something smaller than a short sword you won't be able to "stick" to it. It's safer to not try. As the old bowies didn't, and they were used for fighting. My ideas on the guards is to keep your hand off the blade.

Fighters blade length could be from 6-15 inches. I go for 6 1/2 to 8 because you do need to carry the thing.

The handles need to be more than useable in both fencing grip and inverted, so different fighting styles can be used. I go with the first 2 finger groove mostly. I think its easer to keep a grip on when sweaty or in the rain, it also doesn't hurt to go with a nonslip grip.I go with canvas micarta and bead-blast it good.

These are just some of the things to concider, others are steel, butts to counter balance the blade and make the handle stronger. Sheaths, can it be drawn quickly, worn different ways.

There are books on what has been made. You might enjoy some of them. Dig and reserch, I'm sure the Europeons have different ideas than the US as the Asians.

I hope this helps more than it confuses.
 
Although I've never used a knife in combat, and hope I never will have to, I'd like to suggest that maybe a hard steel pommel would be a good thing on a combat knife, maybe even a pointed one.
JK
 
Here are my thoughts. One difficulty with this question is semantics, everyone has a different notion of what they mean by fighting, or combat. I identify a minimum of 4 different types of fighting one could be talking about, with different knife characteristics being ideal for each one. I'm using production examples (why? why not?)

1. everyday self defense - primarily cutting/slashing, use anything with some belly that is sharp. Folders have a definite role here, guards can be minimal or nonexistant if you are going to cut and run. Examples: Spyderco Endura, Cold Steel Voyager Clip Point, Benchmade Nimravus

2. modern military/swat combat - use a rifle. Knives get used primarily in a sort of "heavy utility" role, including being used/abused as sharpened prybars and screwdrivers. Knife use against humans rare and only done in desperation, but is possible. Use a 5 to 7 inch tanto or heavy clip point. Examples: Cold Steel Recon Tanto, Busse Combat Basic #7

3. offensive specops combat - sentry removal, assassination, murder. Sneak up and thrust against a soft target. Anything 3 inches and up will work. Traditionally dagger territory. I'd still use a 5 to 7 inch tanto, penetrates almost as easily as a dagger, and point is much stronger, will not break against bone. Examples: CS Recon Tanto, Boker Applegait-Fairburn

4. knife duelling - extremely rare, if it exists at all outside of movies (and grudge matches between disgruntled Blade Forums members). 9 to 13 inch bowies for this. CS Trailmaster, etc.

For me the ideal fighter is a compromise of all of these. Ideal for none, workable for all. This would be a 5 to 7 inch clip/bowie type. You can slash, you can stab, you can cook, you can puncture. Randalls, Kabars, SOG bowies, customs of that type. No surprise here. I'd lean towards 5 or 6 inches for speed, and because I have small hands. I'd insist on a good lower guard, to keep my hands off my own blade during thrusts. I like a double guard, because of the possiblity of an opponent's blade edge riding the spine of my knife into my hand. The handle should be comfortable and secure in either forward or reverse grip. I like finger grooves, for the index finger at least. No serrations. Just don't care for them. Don't need saw teeth on spine either. No compasses, bells, or whistles. YMMV.
 
From what Horus posted, I gather he wants what I call a "Pure Fighter". Raver, your 4 types of fights are nice, but I think Horus is talking about a knife for a fight as if 2 guys were going to duel it out on the street. Ever see the movie "Exposure"? That si what he is talking about. Sure a SWAT guy need something different than a GI. We need to find something for Horus.

Please don't think I'm being negative here at all. I understand where you're coming from Raver. I think we tend to qualify our statements a bit too much on the forums. A fighting knife will also depend ons tyle, as I said in my post. I could have gone on for days about that, or just posted "get soem trainin, then get a knife>" This wouldn't have helped Horus at all. He is hunting for a cool knife, so let's help him find one.

Horus, ignore this part, as it has nothing to do with your knife search:

Bart Student: a shovel would be a better weapon than a knife depending on who was weilding what. On average though, I'd take a knfi eover a shovel. All one need do is close the gap and then reach out and touch the bad guy. Knives are great for that: they are equalizers. My granny could cut anyone up fiercely with a knife, but she couldn't weild a shovel. A guy with a chain? Close the gap. Chuck pennies in his face and thrust. There are ways around it.

Horus: you can read this part now:

I don't liek serrations on a fighting knife. A sharp plain edge will cut as well as a serrated blade, and surely can chop/hack better. Some say serrated cuts are nastier so you create more wound trama. I don't liek this argument, as with a bit of training you can comma cut with a knife and cause plenty of wound trama. Serrations can also get caught on clothing or on bone. Perhaps for a small fighter like a Nimravus they may have some use, but I think for a large fighter, a plain edge is the way to go.
 
I agree, which is why my last paragraph suggested a compromise knife that would be usable in any of the roles I listed, even though not optimized for any single one. The only criteria Horus gave was fighting/self defense, and no requirement for concealment.
 
Thanks for the response. I still think about some details but in the main I am certain about the final design. Again, thanks for your help!
 
Horus,
I think the best all around pure fighter that I've ever seen is the Ontario/Bagwell "Fortress" Bowie.
It is light and very fast in the hand, it has a blade catch, a double guard that faces forward to parry with and a sharpened back edge(~4") for back slashing.
The blade is tough so you sacrifice long edge holding for that, but, it is a fighter afterall and I would imagine a tough blade is better than a more brittle but great edge holding blade. Of course the ideal blade would have both features but I think that would have to be put in the "dream knife" thread.:D
I'm sure there is a better knife out there, but I can't remember seeing or hearing of it.

Fascinating thread BTW.
 
Lots of great thoughts for sure!! Some most excellent examples by glockman99 and Steve. For the money and features I am real partial to misque's selection.
Stay Safe...
Clyde
View
 
Why not a machete, or kukri? The trust (point) vrs. cut (edge) debate has been raging throughout recorded history with no clear winner. Why bother to stab someone, when you can simply remove a limb, or their head?

Either way, Fighting knives became obsolete with the advent of reliable handguns. Usually, modern fighters seem designed to fullfill some form of ritualized dueling. In a real defensive situation the other guy is going to have the initiative. Even a two handed sword would be pretty useless when your opponent stabs you first.

So forget the Walter Mitty stuff, and stick with the basics. You want a knife that is comfortable and useful enough that you will have it on you most of the time. You want to be able to reach your knife quickly, and it must be small enough so that it doesn't tip off your opponent. The most probable use would be to injure and surprise the assailant to interupt the attack and open a window for escape.

n2s
 
Plenty of people still get cut AND stabbed in the streets with knives. Fighting knives are not obsolete. Carrying 9"+ bowies on your belt isn't fashionable, but there is still a role for fighting knives.
 
I forgot more!

Kukris and such are great too. The best fighting knfie and the "classical Western" fighting knife are 2 different things. Wanna see a pure western classical fighter? Goet a Randall #1. Bowie design scaled down, but still long. superplastic handle, good steel. Slap ona kydex IWB sheath and you're good to go.

Can you use a folder, push dagger, Bagwell, kukri, Strider tanto.... etc. as a figher? You bet! It all depends on trainign and what youa re willing to carry. If youa ren't gonna learn blade catching, the guard on the BAgwell goves you no more advantages than a straight guard. In fact, it may get in your way. If you want to learn how to trap a blade, an Ontario Bagwell will work way better than a Strider.

Kukris don' thrust as well as a dagger, but you can train witht hem and learn the strengths and weaknesses. Ultimately you want to then determine which knfie fits yout criteria. if you start with the knfie, you liekly won't get a good fit.

It is kinda like picking a martial art forst and then setting out the criteria of things you want to learn. E.g. If you pick kyudo 9spelling?) and then decide you want street defense, you haev a missmatch. Japanese longbow shooting won't help you in the street today. Ideally, set out your criteria first, and then pick the knfie that fits it. If youa re just looking for a classical fighter, double guard or at least single, some portion of double edge and some other basic criteria is all youi need to know. if it loosk liek a Randall #1, it is a good fighter!

Happy hunting Horus.
 
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