What is an Integral Knife?

[Karl B. Andersen]

Interesting question ......


Karl: The integral you show has a different finish on the ferrule/collar ... is that integral to the forged blade or added after the forge? .... if it is added it is not integral by a lot of peoples definitions!


Cheers,

Stephen

I don't have a picture like this of that knife, but it is assembled just like this one. If we agree that an "integral" knife is one whose blade, bolster and tang are forged from ONE piece of steel, then it most certainly qualifies! That spacer is more a part of the handle assembly than anything else. It is used to anchor the alignment pins from the handle to eliminate lateral movement.
The blade, bolster and tang are forged from ONE PIECE of 7/8" round W1.
Being "take-down" does not disqualify it as "Integral".

 

[Kevin Jones]

This is how Edmund Davidson defines his Integrals:
"This process is different from the techniques used to construct any other
type of fixed-blade knife. Here, the knifemaker is dealing with a bar of steel
that is the whole knife during the entire process of working on it, from
start to finish.  Except for the  handle inlays, it is all one piece of steel".

And this is what he did with a 30 pound bar of steel......

David Darom (ddd)

Now that's an Integral , and absolutely AMAZING at that......

 

[Stephen F]

I don't have a picture like this of that knife, but it is assembled just like this one. If we agree that an "integral" knife is one whose blade, bolster and tang are forged from ONE piece of steel, then it most certainly qualifies! That spacer is more a part of the handle assembly than anything else. It is used to anchor the alignment pins from the handle to eliminate lateral movement.
The blade, bolster and tang are forged from ONE PIECE of 7/8" round W1.
Being "take-down" does not disqualify it as "Integral".

Karl, no matter what people want to call it it's a fantastic looking knife! :thumbup:

Stephen

 

[Justin.Mercier]

I certainly hope Karl's knife constitutes an integral, otherwise everything I've learned is wrong =D (that and the only integral I've made thus far, as a raw beginner knife maker wouldn't be considered an integral) My knife ( pic1 pic2) sucks compared to all the things these people are posting, but I still consider it an integral. It's only a 5th knife and someday I hope to make things like Karl's =)

I love threads on integrals though because they're one of my favorite styles. Keep this discussion going !

 

[Peregrin]

I certainly hope Karl's knife constitutes an integral, otherwise everything I've learned is wrong =D (that and the only integral I've made thus far, as a raw beginner knife maker wouldn't be considered an integral) My knife ( pic1 pic2) sucks compared to all the things these people are posting, but I still consider it an integral. It's only a 5th knife and someday I hope to make things like Karl's =)

I love threads on integrals though because they're one of my favorite styles. Keep this discussion going !

I like the looks of that knife Justin. Very nice. :thumbup:

 

[ptgdvc]

I would rather have welded fittings like that Sfreddo than pins and glue, wouldn't you Peter? :0

Homogeneity is the key. If you have to weld the guard on in that fashion to get the "right" pattern, I would still call that "Integral". Damascus steel is just steel welded together after all.

What I might prefer, or not prefer, isn't the question at hand.

Your definition of Integral is bit broader than mine.

How would you classify this knife, if it was made entirely of ATS-34?

P

 

[jjtjr]

Here's a couple of Fisk integrals. A Jamencia and "Boo Daddy". Jim Treacy

 

[Kohai999]

What I might prefer, or not prefer, isn't the question at hand.

Your definition of Integral is bit broader than mine.

How would you classify this knife, if it was made entirely of ATS-34?

P

It is an interesting question, this, is it not?

Considering all things, Rodrigo seems to have come up with an excellent solution to the problem.

I call it integral, and wonderfly made at that.

On the ATS-34, if you can get welds that clean and make a knife look and function like a Sfreddo...you are entitled to call the knife integral.

This is not cheating...this is SMART!! We discuss CNC and manual knee mills, and agree that even though there is more "romance" in manual....CNC helps the maker put out some nice parts...it is an evolution.

Full disclosure, as in all things, is key, and Rodrigo sure put it out there.

If someone wants to say that MY Sfreddo is less of a knife, or not a real integral...they are entitled to that opinion, and when the knife comes up for sale(after I am dead, or on life support) don't want it because of his construction method...that's ok. HE STILL has to forge and shape everthing after the welds are done.

I was always of the mind that "full integral" was front guard/bolsters, and REAR cap or bolsters. Also, it was aways indicated to me by others that either style has an exposed "full" or tapered tang.

"half" or "semi" integral would be front guard/bolster only.

Just my .02.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[ptgdvc]

Full disclosure, as in all things, is key, and Rodrigo sure put it out there.
STeven Garsson

Granted.

My question is, When did you know about its construction method?

Before you bought the knife, or after you read Rodrigo's thread?

P

 

[Keith Montgomery]

To me, the Sfreddo knife is an integral. The welding has made the piece homogenous. It is no longer multiple pieces of metal.

I don't think a full integral requires an exposed tang. As long as everything from the tip to the pomel is one continuous piece of metal. This could also be accomplished with the use of a mortised handle.

 

[Hmathews]

We saw an article about Mr. Ted Dowell years ago and to us his work defines integral knives. I didn't remember the exact process he used, but believe it was similar to what we are now doing.
Our integrals start out as a big block of steel in this case D2. Ater the first step it looks like this:

and after spending a while at the grinder it looks like this:

and finished out it ends up like this:

We primarily make dust, lots of dust with this one. Knives are just a by product.

 

[Kohai999]

Granted.

My question is, When did you know about its construction method?

Before you bought the knife, or after you read Rodrigo's thread?

P

After I purchased it...ask me if I would have purchased it if I had known the construction method beforehand...

No, wait....you deserve to know....ABSOFRIKKINLUTELY....and that makes all the difference in the world.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Murray White]

I agree with Peter re the RS knife in another thread. No longer an integral but the ones that I have are half integral much as is the one that Karl has posted and one I have by Burt Foster.

figured I might be better including the images of these knives in question

Personally, the knife that Michael posted is not an integral but just a very simplistic way of making a knife without the effort to create a guard or a butt whether it be forged or from stock removal.

The knife that is shown by Edmund Davidson and the RS that Paul posted is full integral and RS will be building more of these for me.

 

[Murray White]

Stephen -- if you are referring to the Oak leaf Bowie, did not RS say that his bowies and knives such as yours are done integrally but the one he posted the tutorial about is a totally different breed of knife due to the turkish damascus pattern?

 

[Kevin Jones]

Good question Murray.

 

[Rodrigo Sfreddo]

Hello guys! I just could'nt imagine that my tutorial would originate such great discuss! That's good!
If somebody think that a welded knife is not integral, try to disassemble it!
Sometimes I think people mind more about the definitions than the results!
If we go to be so restrict on our definitions, I'll say that is impossible to make integral knives out of composite damascus or even damascus at all!
What should I do to make an integral knife in turkish damascus? Keep welding twisted bars until I get a very large block of steel and then go to the milling machine and remove anything that is not a knife? That's would be the only solution, because I would'nt forge this large block to shape, distorting and messing all the pattern and still call it turkish!:thumbdn:
And If I'll decide to mill it, I would still be welding steel in the first place... And this goes to regular damascus as well.
That's my point if wiew.
I would like to wish an excelent new year to all in this forum!

 

[Keith_H]

I was looking through your site, And I have to say, that your knives are some of the most beautiful that I've seen. I was really taken by the horizontal integrals.

I Think that what mr. Sfreddo did with the turkish damascus bowie is an Integral, and very skillfully done. Keep up the good work!

 

[Kevin Jones]

Well, I for one am glad Rodrigo cleared this up as every time I see one of these knives I find myself wondering how the heck he forges these guards/bolsters with such precision.

Thanks Rodrigo! :thumbup:

 

[custombuff]

To me, the Sfreddo knife is an integral. The welding has made the piece homogenous. It is no longer multiple pieces of metal.

I agree with Keith here and that makes Sfreddo's knife an integral to me. I also agree with Rodrigo in that sometimes people get more worked up about definitions than the finished piece. Is it good to know how it was made? Yes, for many reasons. However, we do loose sight of the end product sometimes. Rodrigo's knives make my heart skip a beat. And THAT'S what I find most important.

Nick

 

[fisk]

Guys, if you do not mind I would like to put a few words in on intergals.
An intergal in the knife making community would or should be defined as thus

An intergal means one piece blade and tang, add on to that
You have knives with intergal bolsters, intergal full tangs, intergal guards, intergal guards and pommels. All of these are defined as intergals.
There are no half or full intergals but there are knives with "parts" intergal to the blade.

An intergal is a piece that comes off of the hammer or mill table with as many of the above mentioned parts of the construction as the maker intended being from one piece.

What RS did is an intergal, the reasoning being it came from the hammer as one finished forging. Did he cut and apply other pieces to it during his forge welded. sure. He did so to weld into one finished piece that he could clean up and finish. He put some parts on a 90 degrees and some other pieces but he forged welded it no different than some regular mosaic pieces that end up as one piece. If he had used screws,glues or pins to attachent the guard, bolster or pommel it would not be a intergal but it came off of the hammer as one piece.

I like the intergals. I tried them for several years off and on and never really knew how to make one till I went down to Brazil and watched them and learned how. Intergals are catching on more and more in this country and they can in their most simpliest forms be more diffiuclt to make than a traditional looking knife.
Hope this did not confuse matters more.