What is Damascus? A true definition

Rusty Shakleford

Rusty Shakleford

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I'm sure everyone has seen it. Window shopping for knives on ebay or other such reputable sites. "Custom Damascus knife hand made $40" obviously its just an acid etched pattern but how can Damascus be measured and defined in a way that can be repeated and reliable.

I know the technical definitions of Damascus. The real Damascus steel from antiquity that somehow cannot be duplicated. Supposedly this is the type of steel that pierced the side of christ. So how do you make a steel that can kill a God? Fold two steels together until they are welded? Which two steels? How many times? Until Damascus has been given a true definition I think I will just keep my distance. And not Damasteel, don't start me on that.

If you have any knives thst were sold under the label of Damascus steel post em here. I'll start with this Perkins Damascus type steel knife. It is supposedly actually two different steels folded together and the pattern does appear on the edge but I'm not gonna go sanding it and putting iron ferrite on it.

20220824_011922.jpg

Edit: The more I am researching the more strongly I believe no knife should bare the Label Damascus unless it meets the qualifications of original Damascus steel from 700AD. Which means no, it did not kill our savior. It should rather be called pattern welded steel or pattern etched.

The original composition is very interesting. It contained a steel formed in India under the label Wootz steel. Wootz steel was crucible formed with trace impurities like vanadium, molybdenum and carbon nanotubes and I believe this is where we have issues with duplication. Carbon nanotube technology hasn't caught up to a point where we can properly reverse engineer Wootz steel. This steel then made its way to Syria where it was folded with a carbon steel containing nickel alloys. They didn't have sheet steel back then so they would forge wires which were put on a mandrill and hammered into a form. Then reforged into their final shape.

Interesting stuff especially when you consider it would be pretty difficult to make this by accident let alone then duplicate it. Im thinking aliens man.
 
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Yeah, high-carbon and lower-carbon mix, seems like a thing to appreciate visually if you are into that, if it is a pretty enough pattern. It is not something that I'll personally shell out the dough for, do not care for it that much.

As to some sort of superior performance, I find that to be a gimmick, especially to newer knife customers, it is presented falsely on some websites like BudK made to deceive, as like the best steel you can get, as though they have the ancient formula in their wrap-on Damascus. Glad I never even fell for one then.
 
Historically correct Damascus is forvever lost (the way to make it).

Modern Damascus is the best we can do to replicate it.

I assume everybody in the knife world already know this, so whenever we say "damascus", we mean "modern pattern welded damascus", not "historically accurate damascus".
 
Yes, I understand what pattern welded steel is. But there is a huge difference between cheap pot steel and 440 stainless vs a steel made with modern elements like chromium, molybdenum and vanadium welded with a high carbon steel.

It's not meant an argument my friend, it's an open ended question
 
When I say, "I have news", how do you know if it is "good news" or "bad news"? you need to actually hear it.

When I say, "it's damascus" how do you know if it's "good damascus" or "bad damascus"? you need to know the composition and the HT that went into it.

The same applies to other steel like, let say, someone put M390 on their blade, do you know for sure 100% that that blade is good? or is it a poorly HT 40HRC M390?

If you want to clarify the quality of the knife, then you'll have to also include HT, geometry, sharpening,... not just the steel .

Calling bad damascus "damascus", or bad M390 "M390" is not technically wrong.
 
Ok, M390 cannot be bad or good because it is made to the same specifications at Bohler. The composition is going to be pretty reliably consistent.

Trying to find the specifications on knives labeled as Damascus steel is not an easy task. Do you know what composition of steels most closely compares to the original Damascus from antiquity (without google) i dont.

Do you have a knife sold under the Damascus label to show?
 
True Damascus steel came from Damascus. That's it.

Everything else is simply "pattern welded" steel but folks like the historical name even if it's incorrect, if another name had caught on instead we could be calling it "Toledo" steel, same thing historically, but true (pattern welded) Toledo steel came from Toledo.

Now done for bling, historically done to try & get the steel as consistent as possible, sort of like kneading dough.

.
 
I like Devon Thomas' Damascus. I'm not sure what steels it consists of but it sharpens up nicely, keeps the edge fairly well & looks really good doing it. The Damascus I've used from well-known makers like Chad Nichols & Devon Thomas just performs really well. I haven't had the chance to try out any of this (new?) Chinese Damascus yet. I do own one Civivi Damascus folder. It's my first knife from that company & I have to say I was very impressed, especially considering the materials used & it costing under $80. The difference between these two knives is about $200. I'm not going to get into American vs Chinese labor practices. I'm just comparing the materials used. Also like I said, I haven't had the chance to put the Civivi through any serious cutting tasks like I have the Case, but I suspect the Case would out perform the Civivi just due to the experience of the Damascus makers alone. I must say that they're both very attractive knives though.


View attachment 1909236

View attachment 1909246
 
I'mSoSharp said:
True Damascus steel came from Damascus. That's it.

Everything else is simply "pattern welded" steel but folks like the historical name even if it's incorrect, if another name had caught on instead we could be calling it "Toledo" steel, same thing historically, but true (pattern welded) Toledo steel came from Toledo.

Now done for bling, historically done to try & get the steel as consistent as possible, sort of like kneading dough.

.
Click to expand...
It got it's name from where it was discovered but authentic Damascus does contain certain properties like being made with wootz steel from India. Its become a pure gimmick and that's why I stay away.
 
Civivi's damascus is made from 9cr, I have three knives with it and it works well. Granted, it's not a PM steel, but regardless I'm impressed by how good it's been.
 
I think original "Damascus" steel was close to (the same?) as what is known today as "wootz". It was most likely a monosteel, high(er) carbon steel and named for the area where it was allegedly produced. It is sometimes referred to as "watered" steel because when etched it will reveal pattern or "banding" that looks like drops of water. Modern high carbon steels can be thermally treated to produce similar results in the internal structure.

That is different than what is today referred almost everywhere as "Damascus" where two (or more) steels of different alloy content are forge welded together to produce a variety of patterns when etched because one of the steels reacts differently than the other(s) in the etching medium, often the result of added nickel. This is probably much more accurately described as "pattern welded" steel.

Damascus is not magic where it somehow becomes greater than the parent steels used. But it isn't necessarily inferior either. If the smith does their part, the steel is also not worse than the parent steels. So if quality steels are used to start, a quality blade with good performance can be expected, with proper care/treatment from the smith.

The material composition needs to be known to help determine if it is a quality blade or not.
 
Here's a potion of a Turkish Yatagan sword blade I have, very old & who knows maybe made at a time pattern welded steel was being produced in Damascus, folks refer to this as "Damascus" but of course it isn't really.

yy9GkNj.jpg
 
Rusty Shakleford said:
I'm sure everyone has seen it. Window shopping for knives on ebay or other such reputable sites. "Custom Damascus knife hand made $40" obviously its just an acid etched pattern but how can Damascus be measured and defined in a way that can be repeated and reliable.

I know the technical definitions of Damascus. The real Damascus steel from antiquity that somehow cannot be duplicated. Supposedly this is the type of steel that pierced the side of christ. So how do you make a steel that can kill a God? Fold two steels together until they are welded? Which two steels? How many times? Until Damascus has been given a true definition I think I will just keep my distance. And not Damasteel, don't start me on that.

If you have any knives thst were sold under the label of Damascus steel post em here. I'll start with this Perkins Damascus type steel knife. It is supposedly actually two different steels folded together and the pattern does appear on the edge but I'm not gonna go sanding it and putting iron ferrite on it.

View attachment 1909198

Edit: The more I am researching the more strongly I believe no knife should bare the Label Damascus unless it meets the qualifications of original Damascus steel from 700AD. Which means no, it did not kill our savior. It should rather be called pattern welded steel or pattern etched.

The original composition is very interesting. It contained a steel formed in India under the label Wootz steel. Wootz steel was crucible formed with trace impurities like vanadium, molybdenum and carbon nanotubes and I believe this is where we have issues with duplication. Carbon nanotube technology hasn't caught up to a point where we can properly reverse engineer Wootz steel. This steel then made its way to Syria where it was folded with a carbon steel containing nickel alloys. They didn't have sheet steel back then so they would forge wires which were put on a mandrill and hammered into a form. Then reforged into their final shape.

Interesting stuff especially when you consider it would be pretty difficult to make this by accident let alone then duplicate it. Im thinking aliens man.
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I haven't read this whole thread.. but from my knowledge on Damascus.. the closest thing to REAL Damascus would be Wootz Damascus. Here's a really good video on it. They actually smelted an ingot.. no welding from what I remember (been a long time since I saw this video.. so don't it take it as gospel)


Who knows how close Al got.. I bet it's a helluva lot closer than any pattern welded stuff though. That being said.. they're are some real magicians out there pattern welding.

Check out Kyle Royer.. dude is making some sweet blades.


Devon Thomas being another as a user above stated.
 
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Rusty Shakleford said:
Ok, M390 cannot be bad or good because it is made to the same specifications at Bohler. The composition is going to be pretty reliably consistent.

Trying to find the specifications on knives labeled as Damascus steel is not an easy task.
Click to expand...

But that's not limited to Damascus. You mentioned in a previous post "$40 knives"... well yeah. If you think you're going to get great pattern welded steel n a $40 you're kidding yourself. That's not an issue with "Damascus" though. If you saw a $40 knife marked as "stainless" you'd also be suspicious since it doesn't say which stainless it's using. Hopefully it's surgical steel though, since we all know that's the sharpest. :D

The point here is, I don't see a reason to condemn "Damascus" generally because the cheapest makers aren't disclosing the makeup. Get it from a good and reliable maker who will say "120 layers of 1084 and 15n20." Then you know what it is... problem solved. Whether it's historically correct? Who knows. But regarding consistency of composition, that's an easy fix if you get it from a good maker who discloses the makeup.
 
Another definition of Damascus (steel): It's one of the things that make Forged in Fire interesting to watch.

Joking aside, it never drew me in as "must have." But, as it happens, at this very moment I am awaiting delivery of a new custom knife purchase with a twisted Damascus blade. I probably also would've bought the knife if it were in mono steel, but together with snakewood handles it did look rather attractive in the auction pics. I'll let you know if it particularly good or bad when it gets here.
 
gooeytek said:
I've got some 3V core damascus...
51343820640_d041f3ba1f_b.jpg
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Didn't know anyone was using 3V.. gotta go check this out. Might be my first "Damascus" blade purchase in a long long time. These little things look sweet. Who's the maker if you don't mind me asking?
 
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