What is Damascus? A true definition

jideta said:
There is a video on youtube showing a smith chasing wootz steel.
Crucible formed then checked with a microscope for pattern, then analyzed for content.
I don' think they always get it so it's like Christmas when they open the crucible and do.
I forget the name, but his knives are for sale somewhere.
Impressive stuff.
Wootz, if I remember correctly is like canister welding where they added a bunch of stuff in and put it in the crucible (maybe Damasteel is close?).
Pattern welding is more like how they made Japanese swords, where the metals were forged welded then the blocks are cut in half over and over to create the layers/patterns.

I think wootz was developed because steel was inferior back in the day; modern steels I would think, have already exceeded wootz in quality.
Click to expand...
You got that link or some key words to use? Having trouble finding it, sounds really interesting.

I'd say modern crucible formed steels have far exceeded wootz steel.

Chefget said:
View attachment 1909495View attachment 1909496View attachment 1909497View attachment 1909498
Click to expand...
I have come to loathe the Damascus pattern on knives just because 98% of the time that is all it is but these blades are absolutely beautiful. Can you key us in to some of the details on the maker and materials?
 
jideta said:
There is a video on youtube showing a smith chasing wootz steel.
Crucible formed then checked with a microscope for pattern, then analyzed for content.
I don' think they always get it so it's like Christmas when they open the crucible and do.
I forget the name, but his knives are for sale somewhere.
Impressive stuff.
Wootz, if I remember correctly is like canister welding where they added a bunch of stuff in and put it in the crucible (maybe Damasteel is close?).
Pattern welding is more like how they made Japanese swords, where the metals were forged welded then the blocks are cut in half over and over to create the layers/patterns.

I think wootz was developed because steel was inferior back in the day; modern steels I would think, have already exceeded wootz in quality.
Click to expand...
You're probably thinking of Al Pendray.
 
K.O.D. said:
Civivi's damascus is made from 9cr, I have three knives with it and it works well. Granted, it's not a PM steel, but regardless I'm impressed by how good it's been.
Click to expand...

The Civivi Damascus is made with 9Cr18Mov and 10Cr15CoMov. The former is a decent budget steel on its own. The latter is a Chinese analog of VG-10. This modern "Damascus" is supposed to get reasonable edge retention for something that people primarily buy for looks. I have some but I really haven't put much use on it.

As far as looks, different grinds and finishes do different things. Pictures don't always do it justice. Here is my Elementum. My Governor has a much different look. I'll try to dig it out later this week or next for a picture.

8jiMmb3.jpg
 
The origin of Damascus is vague. But I'm almost sure it's not Damascus, Syria. Early descriptions merely point to the steel's damascend pattern, reminding them of damask, a rather pricey cloth at the time. It must have been simultaneously deviced in known blade centers in Europe. Before there was even damascus, sword makers already did forge welding. So it's just a matter of refining one's forging technique to produce finer, ordered layers.

In the 20th century, the first time I encountered the term was in the early '70s when two American blade smiths, Bill Moran and Bill Bagwell, were able to replicate the old damasteels. Moran said he uses up more than 50 pounds of coal for every inch of damascus blade he makes.

It was in the late '80s when I first came across "stamascus."
 
jideta said:
There is a video on youtube showing a smith chasing wootz steel.
Crucible formed then checked with a microscope for pattern, then analyzed for content.
I don' think they always get it so it's like Christmas when they open the crucible and do.
I forget the name, but his knives are for sale somewhere.
Impressive stuff.
Wootz, if I remember correctly is like canister welding where they added a bunch of stuff in and put it in the crucible (maybe Damasteel is close?).
Pattern welding is more like how they made Japanese swords, where the metals were forged welded then the blocks are cut in half over and over to create the layers/patterns.

I think wootz was developed because steel was inferior back in the day; modern steels I would think, have already exceeded wootz in quality.
Click to expand...

Rusty Shakleford said:
You got that link or some key words to use? Having trouble finding it, sounds really interesting.

I'd say modern crucible formed steels have far exceeded wootz steel.


I have come to loathe the Damascus pattern on knives just because 98% of the time that is all it is but these blades are absolutely beautiful. Can you key us in to some of the details on the maker and materials?
Click to expand...

WValtakis said:
You're probably thinking of Al Pendray.
Click to expand...

Arathol said:
Click to expand...
I literally put all this information on the first page 😂
 
The thing is the term "Damascus Steel" has become the generic description for all pattern folded/welded/layered blade steels. It has moved past the description of the original steel or its geographic origination.
Kind of like in the name "Hoover" in the UK became the generic name/term for all vacuum cleaners.
 
Rusty Shakleford said:
I have come to loathe the Damascus pattern on knives just because 98% of the time that is all it is but these blades are absolutely beautiful. Can you key us in to some of the details on the maker and materials?
Click to expand...

Most of the damascus that I can identify (all of the blanks and the knives made from them) are made by Robert Eggerling in Pennsylvania. I believe he forges most of his damascus from 1095 and 12N20. It is oil-quenched carbon steel.

I believe Mr. Eggerling is now late 70's /early 80's, still forging steel in his shed. Below are pictures of a visit to his house (nicest guy in the knife business!)

About as real as you can get

The sign to his house

View attachment 1910435


Mr Eggerling in his shop next to power hammer

View attachment 1910436


The forging corner

View attachment 1910437

Where steel bars are cut into blanks (Note pile of steel dust bottom center)

View attachment 1910439
 
Last edited:
Someone more knowledgeable than myself can correct me, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that it's thought historically that the quality of blades from Damascus (e.g. the place in Syria) was really just an accident based on the higher carbon levels that occurred naturally in their iron ore, so they just happened to be making much higher quality blades at that time compared with the rest of the world. In other words they accidentally stumbled on high carbon steel without actually knowing the details. Not sure how true it is, but a cool story!
 
I haven’t looked into Damascus beyond some reading around this forum, but I’ve always wondered: How is “ancient” Damascus different from Wootz or modern Damascus made from Wootz? Or rather, how can they be distinguished from each other?

Do the old knives/swords actually have an appearance/pattern that can’t be reproduced today, or is there some other property of old Damascus that I’m not aware of?
 
scdub said:
I haven’t looked into Damascus beyond some reading around this forum, but I’ve always wondered: How is “ancient” Damascus different from Wootz or modern Damascus made from Wootz? Or rather, how can they be distinguished from each other?

Do the old knives/swords actually have an appearance/pattern that can’t be reproduced today, or is there some other property of old Damascus that I’m not aware of?
Click to expand...
I sincerely doubt the quality was better than anything made today. We know too much about metallurgy today by comparison. I would be willing to bet if the OP got his hands on an actual real deal holyfield Damascus blade from antiquity (somehow still usable) and actual used it... he'd hate it too. No way it would hold an edge like modern steels and heat treat processes were virtually nonexistent. I hear they stabbed slaves or pigs or something when red hot to "quench" them lmao. Seems to me that nothing could make the man happy. Just likes the idea above all.. a romanticist of sorts.
 
Snardvark said:
I sincerely doubt the quality was better than anything made today. We know too much about metallurgy today by comparison. I would be willing to bet if the OP got his hands on an actual real deal holyfield Damascus blade from antiquity (somehow still usable) and actual used it... he'd hate it too. No way it would hold an edge like modern steels and heat treat processes were virtually nonexistent. I hear they stabbed slaves or pigs or something when red hot to "quench" them lmao. Seems to me that nothing could make the man happy. Just likes the idea above all.. a romanticist of sorts.
Click to expand...
For sure, but certainly better quality than bronze or the terrible “steels” of the time!
 
We have samples of old swords and such that have been analyzed, so we know what they were. Modern wootz is very similar except that there is not one recipe for wootz, but in general we can reproduce it now. We also know that modern steels are much, much better in general and for specific purposes. The video linked above explains a lot. It is very romantic to think that ancient steels were better than what we have today, but this just isn't reality. One of the reasons why we lost the "secret" way to produce these steels is that better methods to produce better quality steels on massive scale were discovered.
 
Docscoot said:
For sure, but certainly better quality than bronze or the terrible “steels” of the time!
Click to expand...
Oh definitely.. It was more than likely the best of the best when it was stumbled upon; but now? I bet 440C from the 90's would wreck it. Hell.. AEB-L would walk it up and down, and it's stock is cheap as dirt. I wouldn't even entertain it vs. something like S30V, 90V, 110V, M390, K390, Magnacut, etc.. probably been said ad nauseam by now.
 
Last edited:
ace said:
We have samples of old swords and such that have been analyzed, so we know what they were. Modern wootz is very similar except that there is not one recipe for wootz, but in general we can reproduce it now. We also know that modern steels are much, much better in general and for specific purposes. The video linked above explains a lot. It is very romantic to think that ancient steels were better than what we have today, but this just isn't reality. One of the reasons why we lost the "secret" way to produce these steels is that better methods to produce better quality steels on massive scale were discovered.
Click to expand...
This
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top