What is knife making?

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Blankblank

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So if anyone has seen my first thread. I've had some ideas presented to me, and I'm trying to change what I view as knife making. Its brought some questions to my mind though. This thread is just out of curiosity, and to possibly grow in my understanding and feelings on what a knife maker is. In the end it's all in the eye of the beholder.

When does someone stop being a knife maker? Or rather than not being a knife maker, when is it not making a knife? Is someone that buys a knife making kit with a reshaped blank, and all the materials they need a knife maker? If someone takes an existing knife, and modifies it to the point of being unrecognizable. Have they made a new knife?

I feel like the feelings I had about it, were contributed to by the fact that when people would ask if I forged this knife. I would tell them, no you really dont want to forge these steels. Because they watched forged in fire they would think that's the only way to make a knife. So having people question me. Made me question myself.

This thread is just something to think about I guess.
 
Knife making is making a knife. Assembling a kit someone else made or modifying a knife someone else made is not making.

There's always as debate around is grinding blanks vs. forging making but most people will agree both are making.
 
Danke42 said:
Knife making is making a knife. Assembling a kit someone else made or modifying a knife someone else made is not making.

There's always as debate around is grinding blanks vs. forging making but most people will agree both are making.
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I don't think you need to rule out assembling a kit. In fact, I don't think it matters what knifemaking is exactly, as long as people are being honest about how they're doing it, and not trying to mislead anybody. At some point we're all using somebody else's work somewhere in the process. Whether it's a kit from a knifemaking supply company, or somebody else's Damascus steel. At the very least, we're all using steel that was forged at a foundry for us, and tools that somebody else made for us, so I don't think there's a real need to get into the semantics of "knifemaking".
 
Also I can ad, when does modifying a knife, become making a new one? Sort of the ship of thesius od knives. Recently I changed the grind on a tojiro shiro #2 kurouchi gyuto to the point it was unrecognizable from the original. If I put a new handle on it as well. Maybe even reheatreated it (if it wasn't way too thin) when does it stop being a tojiro knife?
 
The answer may be different for each person. I forge knives and I use the stock removal method. Both, to me are “making”. If I buy a kit and assemble it, then to me I have assembled a knife kit. That is where my comfort level is with the definition, for me.
There are a lot of people who started assembling kits and as their skills increased, started modifying kits and then delved into my definition of knife making.
What works for you and makes you happy?
 
1. Design/style
The most important factor in knife making is design and what your style is. Do you have a design that is uniquely tied to you in people's minds? When somebody looks at your knife among many across the room do they see that as your knife design? Is your style more catered to art or function? Knives designed for function are very limited in what kinds of lines they can have, knives designed for art have unlimited lines that can be used but can often be very limited if not completely useless for actual function. Some makers do one of the other some try to add a mix or ratio whether they are aware of it or not.
The best way to find your design and style is like anything, to put it into practice.
Create several things and find what calls to you and why. It also helps if you could explain it to somebody so that they can see what you see.





2. Craftsmanship/ fit and finish
Do you have the knife making skills to execute your ideas? Can you grind a knife do you know how to assemble a handle properly? Do you have any extra skills to make your work stand out such as tapering tangs and putting on guards, good craftsmanship raises your knife above others. Fit and finish, it's a part of craftsmanship, are you making 60 grits belt finished lumpy grinds? Or a lustful clean satin finish that looks good in every angle of light?
Are your handles gapped out? Or fit flush without gaps and brought to a nice finish that catches the eye without any discernible defect? Craftsmanship is a skill and mindset that is developed, nobody is born with it.




3. Steel/Heat treatment
This isn't number one, because the world's greatest steel and heat treatment on a poorly designed, horrifically excuted knife, with bad fit and finish is not desirable. Geometry cuts after all.


Where to get started?

Now that we've outlined 1 and 2 being very important and 3 being last.

It's important to understand that nothing in this world is given as a gift there is training and experience behind those things we admire.

So, it's important to start building those skills by doing it, finding a mentor can help accelerate the process but you don't escape the work. Nothing will replace just doing it, which if that means making mistakes and learning from having to reinvent the wheel so be it. I'm not saying that someone shouldn't work smarter, just that sometimes its raw guts and grit, tenacity.



When everybody starts out they want to start with number 3 first but that's not how things work in my opinion.

Its 1,2,3.


This is why in my opinion new guys shouldn't start with trying to hyperfocus on heat treatment because they don't even have the revenue or base to buy the equipment needed to really geek out on it and even if they could they are neglecting the skills they would need to make a good knife.

This is all just an opinion from my experience.
I would put the modding on hold and pursue your own work.



Be dauntless in pursuit, Be generous with effort, Be forgiving of mistakes, and Be confident with humility.
 
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Blankblank said:
Also I can ad, when does modifying a knife, become making a new one? Sort of the ship of thesius od knives. Recently I changed the grind on a tojiro shiro #2 kurouchi gyuto to the point it was unrecognizable from the original. If I put a new handle on it as well. Maybe even reheatreated it (if it wasn't way too thin) when does it stop being a tojiro knife?
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I you take Rolex watch and you smash it in small parts to unrecognizability , these parts will always be from a Rolex watch .
 
DanF said:
The answer may be different for each person. I forge knives and I use the stock removal method. Both, to me are “making”. If I buy a kit and assemble it, then to me I have assembled a knife kit. That is where my comfort level is with the definition, for me.
There are a lot of people who started assembling kits and as their skills increased, started modifying kits and then delved into my definition of knife making.
What works for you and makes you happy?
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At least twice a week I do a general overhaul of some car engine, petrol or diesel. Should I say that I make them :)
 
I don't mine iron ore and make it into Steel. I don't Harvest trees and cut them into handle blanks and stabilize them. I don't make Corby bolts brass tubing or stainless steel tubing. I don't tan leather. I don't make snaps and I don't make the thread. I don't make Micarta or G10. But I use all of these things to make a knife and I am the one who is making the knife
 
Hengelo_77 said:
Does it matter what other people call it?
Do what you enjoy
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No it doesn't. In the end its each person's opinion of what they are doing that matters.

I'm just trying to open my mind up to other ideas, and hearing what others have to say on it would be beneficial to me right now. Also I ask, out of curiosity.
 
I enjoy philosophy and discussions of language, so it's interesting to think about what the boundaries around 'making' something are. But is your goal to do an activity (maybe take a knife kit and finish it, or take some steel and turn it into a knife, or something else) or is your goal to meet some arbitrary definition of being a 'knifemaker'? As pointed out in your other thread, some of the greatest knifemakers of all time have done stock removal and farmed out heat treat; I don't buy into a definition of 'knifemaker' that excludes Bob Loveless, or Horsewright Horsewright or Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith or lots of other great makers (all of whom I believe have made stock removal knives and had them heat treated by someone else). But other people, perhaps influenced unduly by 'Forged in Fire', think forged-and-hammered-and-heat-treated-in-the-forge knives are the only ones that count. But who cares? Do the activity you want to do, learn to get the results you want to get, and don't worry so much about what word gets used to describe it.
 
There was a funny thread in another forum years ago " You know you're a knife maker when......"

Long time ago I purty much quit worrying about what if. Use to help out on a neighboring ranch now and then and the boss there would always say: "If a cowboy always worried about what if, he'd never get anything done." He's right. Just do what is right for ya. Your other thread had me concerned, for about a second and a half, that I wasn't a knife maker, but I'm pretty sure I am. Like I said, I was over it in about the time it took me to read it and I read fast. I use to do my own heat treating and for years now, have sent out ht, for lots of really valid reasons. Mainly because it works for me and how I work. Do what works for you and don't worry much about definitions. My friend N Natlek says ya can't peen a mosaic pin, yet I do it all the time. I'm not sure I've convinced him yet. But ya can.

Maybe the question is: Ya know you're a knife maker when........
 
To me there are several stages or levels. The first is the ability to take rectangular bar stock and scales and make a knife that looks good and performs well. At that point you are a maker. The are many types of construction and materials to try that all introduce new skills. Repeating a bit of what DeadboxHero DeadboxHero said, the next stage would be designing something yourself. Having it turn out visually appealing with intentional performance aspects is a bigger challenge. Having unique recognizible signature elements like Lurquin's handles and guards (to give but one example) is probably the highest level.
None of that requires forging, but that is another avenue of expression that opens up additional creative possibilities.

PS Horsewright Horsewright you might not have convinced N Natlek of anything, but that's fine. He routinely does the "impossible" like drilling hardened steel.
 
Blankblank said:
So if anyone has seen my first thread. I've had some ideas presented to me, and I'm trying to change what I view as knife making. Its brought some questions to my mind though. This thread is just out of curiosity, and to possibly grow in my understanding and feelings on what a knife maker is. In the end it's all in the eye of the beholder.

When does someone stop being a knife maker? Or rather than not being a knife maker, when is it not making a knife? Is someone that buys a knife making kit with a reshaped blank, and all the materials they need a knife maker? If someone takes an existing knife, and modifies it to the point of being unrecognizable. Have they made a new knife?

I feel like the feelings I had about it, were contributed to by the fact that when people would ask if I forged this knife. I would tell them, no you really dont want to forge these steels. Because they watched forged in fire they would think that's the only way to make a knife. So having people question me. Made me question myself.

This thread is just something to think about I guess.
Click to expand...
You're overthinking this. I only do stock removal knives, I may never forge a knife. What got me hooked so to speak, was buying a couple of knife blanks from what I thought was a reputable dealer, and they were the worst ground things I'd ever seen. Being a machinist, I knew I could do better.
A couple of tens of thousands of dollars later, I was right. And I'm still spending money.

You got good advice on the other thread. Only do what is within your wheelhouse. An O1 knife with a great heat treat is better than a CPM D2 knife with a poor heat treat. Make no mistake.

Sending knives out for heat treat does not erase your authorship of the knife.
 
You guys are definitely right.

I'm sending the blades off for now. I'm going to get an oven as soon as I can though. I'm realizing that me wanting to heat treat my blades is less me thinking I wont really be making the knives myself, and more that I'm fascinated by the heat treating process. That heat treating is just part of what I want to do, just as much as designing and grinding the knives themselves.
 
Just like there are different levels of craftsmanship/skill there are different levels of design and aesthetic sense. “Making” combines some combination of those two facets. I see makers on here that are exceptional at both and many that are not. But both certainly have a huge subjective element. It’s all those shades of gray that intrigue me.
 
I think It is simply problem solving. Developing and/or honing a new skill set - overcoming challenges. It’s very rewarding and sometimes expensive and I don’t think it matters where you are in the spectrum of how many parts you actually made yourself.
 
I've always appreciated the skill & craftsmanship that goes in knife making. To my non-knife maker mind, if you've given its shape & edge, then you made it.

How & what follows, is a different story.

I don't think knife modification can be considered "knife making", just like when you go to an auto repair shop or whatever, you ask them to do something awesome to your vehicle, but they're not auto makers, the didn't manufacture it.

imo
 
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