What is knife making?

Horsewright said:
My friend N Natlek says ya can't peen a mosaic pin, yet I do it all the time. I'm not sure I've convinced him yet. But ya can.

Maybe the question is: Ya know you're a knife maker when........
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:) No , you no convinced me yet . BTW , I never said that you can't peen a mosaic pin , obviously you can and every one else can do that . I questioned the result of that :thumbsup:
 
OK guys, this is Blankblanks thread about knifemaking, not the place to argue past differences!
 
Natlek said:
I don t think that I understand this , Richard ? Can you explain to me what you mean with that ?
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Joking, because it seems that every few weeks you have to show pictures to convince someone that you often choose to drill hardened steel, which many aren't aware is possible.
On Horsewright's claim, I suppose he can probably get the tubing walls to flare a little.
 
Blankblank said:
So if anyone has seen my first thread. I've had some ideas presented to me, and I'm trying to change what I view as knife making. Its brought some questions to my mind though. This thread is just out of curiosity, and to possibly grow in my understanding and feelings on what a knife maker is. In the end it's all in the eye of the beholder.

When does someone stop being a knife maker? Or rather than not being a knife maker, when is it not making a knife? Is someone that buys a knife making kit with a reshaped blank, and all the materials they need a knife maker? If someone takes an existing knife, and modifies it to the point of being unrecognizable. Have they made a new knife?

I feel like the feelings I had about it, were contributed to by the fact that when people would ask if I forged this knife. I would tell them, no you really dont want to forge these steels. Because they watched forged in fire they would think that's the only way to make a knife. So having people question me. Made me question myself.

This thread is just something to think about I guess.
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There really isn't one diffinative definition of a knife maker, I would still consider you to be a knife maker if you design a knife in CAD, hire someone to have it cut out of steel with a CNC machine, have the blade sent to a professional for heat treatment, with your hands on contribution to the knifes manufacture only consisting of the bevels and a handle. I somewhat arbitrarily exclude people who exclusively assemble kit knives that are designed by other people(nothing wrong with doing so I just think of it as actually making the knife), and I also exclude designers who have no direct involvement in turning their designs into reality. There are a lot of shades of gray where someone could be considered to either be a knife maker or not be a knife maker with both sides having valid points.
 
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I agree this can be very gray. I have a chinese style cleaver - vg10 core damascus san mai that i only put the handle on (did not modify the blade at all) - wonderful sharp knife, i use it all the time ... but i "say" i only put the handle on it. Ive made a few fishing fillet knives for friends ... bought the pre made blanks, but ground the bevels thinner, added choils, modified the profiles, hand sanded and added handles (and sheaths). The users rave about them. Did i "make" them? Dont know myself. For stock removal Ive designed my own profiles, replicated profiles from old sabatier cutlery, directly copied profiles (thank you horsewright!), ive not done my own forging, but used product from and in collaboration with others (thank you weo!), and ive never done heat treating (though years ago that process is what initially interested me in knifemaking). Ive done bolsters, no bolsters, single part handles and multi part handles (and wa handles).

I am not someone who has a "brand" with followers who ask to buy my knives (and i would not sell them anyways), but the people i give knives to routinely comment on how sharp they are, and how they stay sharp. As others have said, at some point we are all starting our own process with a product produced by someone else. Has anyone here produced a final knife starting with making your own steel from raw elements? (Maybe larrin...). Where do you draw the line?

Do i "make" knives? Dont really know. Maybe it is just best to let others make that distinction and run with that...
 
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You don t MAKE knife from knife , whatever you do to that knife .You make knife when you take piece of hardenable steel ,shape it to look like knife , with hammer in forge or with file then grind bevels ,sharpen edge and put some handle on that .Then you can say that you MAKE something that we call knife ...............It i simple like that for me at least :)
 
Cashen makes/has made knives, right on down to the dirt and minerals.😆
 
Blankblank said:
Obviously not you. I know it's not of life or death thing. It's just a question
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I think the point is that no one thinks you should not do the work you can do around knifemaking because you're worried about whether it fits the definition. Make some stuff from a kit, mod some production knives, make your own with someone else heat-treating them, heat treat your own. Do all of it.
 
Maybe the answer is just be a bit more specific with the language? i have knives i've forged, ones i've ground, some around that i need to reshape and put a handle on, ones i've designed, ones i haven't designed even though i ground them from flat stock.
human language is imprecise, english is particularly crap. if you find a situation where it matters (such as selling something) take the time to be more precise in what you say.
 
Beating the snot out of metal while its hot then grinding and adding a handle is "true" knife making.

Nah I'm just messing, My take on it is when you actually make the blade and not something from a knife kit.
 
There will be only opinions. And here's more!

Mostly rambling thoughts, but my ultimate conclusion has already been stated by others: language is imprecise, context is important, and the final definition is impossible - especially in a living language.

Definitions:
Must a knife be steel? In the current dictionary definition, you just need a cutting edge on a handle.
If you knap a stone knife, I would argue you are a knifemaker.
If you whittle a knife out of wood, I would argue you are a knifemaker.
If you cast or stamp a knife, I would argue you are a knifemaker.

Even in the steel world, there is the slippery definition of when something 'becomes' a knife. Is it after quench? If it's a hidden tang or folder blade it has no handle so it defies our dictionary definition.

If you ever want to get really frustrated, look at some of the laws on the books about knives. Most knife types are undefined or poorly defined.

I would offer up "bladesmith" as the term that requires forging of the blade. It would be a subset of "knifemaker", and may provide a more exact description (where appropriate).

We on this forum are biased to making quality steel blades. So in context, knifemaker can be assumed to eliminate stone, etc.
The world is full of the living language mutations. A putty knife sorta cuts. A gamma knife uses radiation. Are scissors knives? (See arguments about Edward Scissorhands vs Edward Bladehands)

I also like to look to the outside world for analogies.
If you write something, you are an author. But if you modify something, you are an editor. But it's never that simple.
You can be a co-author, a contributing author, an aggregator, a copy editor, a content editor, a substantive editor... the list goes on. Apply all of these to knife making and you can make up your own term that has value.
 
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FunkCoaster said:
There will be only opinions. And here's more!

Mostly rambling thoughts, but my ultimate conclusion has already been stated by others: language is imprecise, context is important, and the final definition is impossible - especially in a living language.

Definitions:
Must a knife be steel? In the current dictionary definition, you just need a cutting edge on a handle.
If you knap a stone knife, I would argue you are a knifemaker.
If you whittle a knife out of wood, I would argue you are a knifemaker.
If you cast or stamp a knife, I would argue you are a knifemaker.

Even in the steel world, there is the slippery definition of when something 'becomes' a knife. Is it after quench? If it's a hidden tang or folder blade it has no handle so it defies our dictionary definition.

If you ever want to get really frustrated, look at some of the laws on the books about knives. Most knife types are undefined or poorly defined.

I would offer up "bladesmith" as the term that requires forging of the blade. It would be a subset of "knifemaker", and may provide a more exact description (where appropriate).

We on this forum are biased to making quality steel blades. So in context, knifemaker can be assumed to eliminate stone, etc.
The world is full of the living language mutations. A putty knife sorta cuts. A gamma knife uses radiation. Are scissors knives? (See arguments about Edward Scissorhands vs Edward Bladehands)

I also like to look to the outside world for analogies.
If you write something, you are an author. But if you modify something, you are an editor. But it's never that simple.
You can be a co-author, a contributing author, an aggregator, a copy editor, a content editor, a substantive editor... the list goes on. Apply all of these to knife making and you can make up your own term that has value.
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I like the japanese kitchen knife making world. Depending on the region, they tend to have different people that do different parts. One guy will just do the forging, one will grind the bevels on the big water wheels (I believe they call them sharpeners) then sometimes they'll have someone else for polishing. They have someone else that does handles. I believe sakai tends to divide labor like this.

Then you have other japanese makers that will do everything themselves from forging, to putting handles on, to sharpening. In the cases of the effort of a whole group making the knife, like sakai knife makers they will have the collective as there now. Or sometimes it will be named after the one that forges, or whoever in the groups name has the most recognition, or there is the case of anryu himono where ikeda san has been basically making all the knives for years, because his uncle has stepped back and let him take over the business (to some degree, without going into it to far)
 
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Blankblank said:
I like the japanese kitchen knife making world. Depending on the region, they tend to have different people that do different parts. One guy will just do the forging, one will grind the bevels on the big water wheels (I believe they call them sharpeners) then sometimes they'll have someone else for polishing. They have someone else that does handles. I believe sakai tends to divide labor like this.

Then you have other japanese makers that will do everything themselves from forging, to putting handles on, to sharpening. In the cases of the effort of a whole group making the knife, like sakai knife makers they will have the collective as there now. Or sometimes it will be named after the one that forges, or whoever in the groups name has the most recognition, or there is the case of anryu himono where ikeda san has been basically making all the knives for years, because his uncle has stepped back and let him take over the business (to some degree, without going into it to far)
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Have you made any progress with your ventures?

Have you been practicing grinding and putting handles on?
 
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