What is so special about the sebenza?

[Esav Benyamin]

What is so special about the Sebenza?

Silly question. The same thing that is special about any other high-end knife or brand that keeps a large following for years. The products perform at an impressive level. They satisfy the aesthetic demands of their owners. The price, while high, is within the buyer's budget.

Much of this will be subjective. If ya don't want one, don't buy one. Don't whine that someone else is impressed by something that eludes you.

It's all in your mind. ( pick your own derisive smiley )

 

[Thomason]

It's all in your mind.

Yes! Yes, now I get it. It's not the Sebenza that is so special and impressive. It is my mind that is so special and impressive.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Mr. Thomason, we know that your mind is special and impressive. But S * E * B * E * N * Z * A s are too!

 

[marthinus]

Well, here is some food for thought, or just some good reading material regarding tight tolerances, that CRK is renowned for, locks and high dollar knives that Sal Glesser, owner of Spyderco has mentioned through the years on the forums (ps, search is your friend).

Another thing to remember is that the Manufacturing Quality award that CRK has won so many times are not chosen by a panel, it is voted for by fellow knife makers. Even Bob Dozier, a very established maker in his own right has CRK pocket knives and I love his motto of : if it feels like climbing through a barbed wire fence, there is something wrong. Slim, sleek and simple knives.

[video=youtube;nI_73zvGx5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI_73zvGx5Y[/video]

A few weeks back, in this thread, someone asked if there was a Spyderco which could compete with the Sebenza. Sal eventually chimed in. His post was primarily a response to someone's skepticism regarding the origins of the framelock. He noted that he had, in his personal collection, a Chris Reeve knife with an earlier lock of Chris' called the "Lock 45". He further noted that it dated back to the 1970's and was the predecessor of the Reeve Integral Lock. That lead to someone asking what it looked like, at which point he suggested sending it to me to be photographed. He also noted in a later post that it was a small knife. It arrived a couple days ago and he wasn't kidding about its size. For the benefit of those who like "dimensional data" it weighs 1.375 ounces (40 grams) has a closed length of 2 13/16" (71 mm), a blade length of 2 7/32" (57mm) with a 2 1/16" (52mm) cutting edge, and is 5/16" (8mm) thick. For those who find photographic comparisons easier to visualize, the first photo below shows it with a Kiwi and my LH Mnandi.

Beyond that, it's an intriguing design. The action is glassy smooth and the lock up is rock solid despite the fact that the blade is only supported from one side. The small thumb stud and smooth handle, thin on the off side, make it difficult to open, but might be less of a problem for someone right handed and with better motor skills. No clip, that was probably not even a gleam in Sal's eye yet. I'm assuming the handle is titanium anodized to a bronze hue but that, and any other questions regarding it would best be answered by Sal, or someone intimately familiar with Chris Reeve's early knives.

Closed, "front" side:

Closed, lock side:

close up, to show one of the two ball bearings:

The balls do not serve as detents, just to smooth the action. Only friction holds the blade closed.

Another close up, note the angled locking surfaces on the blade...

Lock side view, half open. You can almost see the lower ball bearing:

Top view, almost fully open:

Fully open, lock side:

Finally, the design does have one peculiarity, you can fold the blade in the wrong direction, at least until the thumb stud makes contact with the frame...

Paul

My Personal Website - - - - - - A Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting - - - - - - Kiwimania
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Well, I cannot speak for Chris Reeve Knives, but I will offer an opinion.

I've known Chris and Ann for many years. We worked together when Chris was in South Africa.

A CRK knife is not a custom knife, nor is it a production knife. They are in a class by themselves. They've taken many years to develop their reputation.

Each piece is custom made by skilled custom makers. CRK tolerances and standards are the highest I've seen in processes like surface grinding and heat treat. There is a limit to their production capacity.

Chris is pretty anal on quality. "Quality is time. = Time is money". He pays his craftsmen a fair wage, and he charges a fair margin, he gives the world a product like no other. Chris and Ann work hard and they make a good living. "Enormous profits" is an inside joke that Chris and I laugh about. Frankly, I think they'd feel guilty if they made too much money.

The "Market" will determine if his business strategies work, regardless of what they are. If they don't work, adjustments are made....that's how businesses survive.

BTW, the flip side of a "bargain driven" market is manufacturers are forced to import product (export jobs) from China to compete in the need for the "lower price". More complications.

sal

Hi Dulleddown,

More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.

Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.

sal

-----------------------------------------------------

Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

Hi GWLee,

The benefit of tight tolerances is usually for long term durability as well as smooth function. Long term durability is difficult to determine in a short term decision. That's why reputation is important.

sal

Nice video.

High dollar knives are high dollar because they cost more to make. It might be materials (Titanium, unubtanium, etc.), it might be tolerances (Chris' has lotsa zeros after the decimal before hitting numbers), it might be labor (carving, engraving, etc.).

Sometmes those differences are difficult if not impossible for even the trained eye to detenct, generally impossible for a new student.

Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there, sometimes it just means you can't see it.

sal

At the same time there are many people that feel the knife is not worth it, I did until I read Sal Glesser's comments and bought one myself after 3 years of saving (the knife was later taken in a mugging) and I was UTTERLY UNDERWHELMED when I bought it, even though I handled it before hand I just felt like owning something of true quality for the first time in my life (like a good quality car/suite/watch/camera). Until I used it non stop, on the farm etc and everything just started "flowing" and making sence. I replaced the stolen knife with an Insingo. I will always have a CRK and they retail for around $625 here. They are, for me at least, worth it and my personal connection, what the Sebenza has meant in my life, makes it special for me.

I have rambled a bit, but I hope some of what I have said has helped you to form your own opinion on the matter.

 

[Matthewd]

What is so special about the Sebenza?

Silly question. The same thing that is special about any other high-end knife or brand that keeps a large following for years. The products perform at an impressive level. They satisfy the aesthetic demands of their owners. The price, while high, is within the buyer's budget.

Much of this will be subjective. If ya don't want one, don't buy one. Don't whine that someone else is impressed by something that eludes you.

It's all in your mind. ( pick your own derisive smiley )

No need to get snarky. I have never held one, so I just plain don't know - which is why I asked.
I know that alot if this is subjective, but When I look at some of the custom forum threads here, I see custom 1 off knives in the $600 range that are certainly notches above a production (albeit limited) knife like the sebenza.
Again - I certainly admire it, but I'm just looking to see what makes owners of it so crazy about it.

Also - in the trade section of the "classifieds", everyone seems to be willing to trade what they have for a sebenza...
Mah Piton?

 

[JNewell]

I guess we can't debate if you're outta here, but I have almost literally a closet-full (not a drawer full, but a closet) of BM, Spyderco, and other knives. Not one of the production or semi-production knives touches a Sebenza for manufacturing tolerances and F&F. The Sebenza may not float everyone's boat, and that's fine, but the very best BM and Spyderco folders aren't even remotely close to the Sebenza for "identical specs."

I'm not going to, it's only going to lead to a debate about how they don't measure up, and no one benefits from that, there will be no winners.
However, it doesn't take a lot of trouble to search for knives with similar specs to the Sebenza on the sites of Spyderco and Benchmade, to name just two. Another good example is a brand well-known for cloning the Sebenza with identical specs at a bit more than half the price. It was handling this folder that opened my eyes to the fact that I had drunk the Kool-Aid. The clone is every bit as good in every way, at a much more reasonable price.
I'm not gonna convince any CRK fan, never gonna happen. My initial response was to the OP, who will be the only one who possibly still has an open mind on this.
I'm outta here.

In my case, other people's say-so. I bought one, carried it on-and-off for a year or so and - because expectations were so high - was disappointed by it. It's the only high-end folder I ever sold.
There's nothing wrong with it, but considering its price and reputation, it's nothing special either. The Sebenza is a case of the Emperor's new clothes: there's nothing there that can't be had at half the pricepoint, and some mass-produced factory higher-end folders outdo it performance-wise, spec-wise and F&F-wise.
I know this is gonna offend a lot of people but it's my honest, experience-based opinion.

 

[JNewell]

It's a little odd, the Sebenza. On "paper" (web or otherwise), it is nothing special. The steel is not remarkable and the HT is (ahem) soft. Titanium framkelocks are thick on the ground. And it's a lot of money. I doubt I would ever have bought one on my own, but I was given one, and was amazed. I currently own six Sebenzas, among other CRK knives. To me, it is a classic case of the whole being more than the sum of the parts. However, this is all YMMV.

No need to get snarky. I have never held one, so I just plain don't know - which is why I asked.
I know that alot if this is subjective, but When I look at some of the custom forum threads here, I see custom 1 off knives in the $600 range that are certainly notches above a production (albeit limited) knife like the sebenza.
Again - I certainly admire it, but I'm just looking to see what makes owners of it so crazy about it.

Also - in the trade section of the "classifieds", everyone seems to be willing to trade what they have for a sebenza...
Mah Piton?

 

[snowreaper1]

Sure the Bradley Alias comes in at half the price with the same materials used but all it takes is for you to handle a sebenza to know that engineering wise and quality wise its
superior in every aspect. In the end a knife is only a knife and most all can cut with the best of them. But for the hardcore knife enthusiast who knows what quality is they reach
for the Sebenza. No other production folder comes close to CRK's tolerances.

 

[Rotte]

I own several folders: Buck, Emerson, Gerber, Lone Wolf, Al Mar, Dozier, Spyderco, Kershaw, Case, Benchmade, and a couple of customs. The Sebenza is the benchmark, the "Gold Standard". It seems a bit expensive to me...too expensive.. but then the Sebenza is the one I consider my "grail" folder. The Umnumzaan is the one I took to Afghanistan with me, but the Sebbie is the knife of knives as far as I'm concerned.

 

[puppykicker]

It's really a matter of choice. Some like em and some do not.
I happen to prefer the Alias II over a small Sebenza and prefer the large 21 over an Alias I.
Choices are good, embrace them.

 

[kamagong]

I don't know about the others, but I don't consider the Sebenza a "holy grail." It's a great knife to be sure, but it isn't a Jedi lightsaber or some magical piece of steel. The Seb isn't the strongest knife. It isn't the sharpest. And it certainly isn't the cheapest.

The Sebenza is a Les Baer 1911. It is a SureFire flashlight. In other words, the Sebenza is a finely crafted tool, made by Americans, and backed by company that takes pride in its products. Are there cheaper products available? You bet. Do these products work well? Sure, some of them do. But some people willingly pay for a quality, long-lasting tool that is made from premium materials by workers earning a decent wage.

And then there's me, who bought a Sebenza because I liked the way it looks.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Well obviously that isn't true because philwar had one and was dissapointed. Not saying that Im in the same boat as him because I do really like mine, I won't disagree with anyone that says they are overhyped though.

Over hyped? I would venture to say that 99% of the worlds population has never heard of, or seen a sebenza.

As I see it, there is no "hype." Only word of mouth from very satisfied customers. There are naysayers and haters, but I would bet most of those have never held a sebenza.




ETA: I find it hilarious that someone who obviously likes Emerson knives says the sebenza is over hyped. Ernest Emerson defines the word hype, and most of it is braggadocio.

 

[Samael]

Me, I like the Mnandi. Sweet little knife (emphasis on "little"). The big Sebs don't do a thing for me. And yes, I've carried one.

 

[Skimo]

Same thing that's special about Busse, Benchmaed, Spyderco, kershaw.... the list is long.

I've handled 'em(large model), being left handed.... nothing is special, maybe if I handle a left handed model.

Smoothness, I use and modify my knives, I've gotten axis lock knives so smooth that nothing I've handled from production or custom even comes close.

The knife design and warranty exclude flipping the knife open, I don't even know how often I open knives with wrist flicks, so for me, yeah, nothing special or amazing, tight tolerances are a nice "tech nerd" thing, they re-sell amazingly well and some of the graphics are stunning, I'm sure they're great knives all around.


(based on the one models I've looked at)

 

[gmarthur]

When it's all said and done the Sebenza is just a knife. If you buy one and expect it to be more than that you will be disappointed. That said it is a very nice knife. You're on a forum where people are into knives. Knives are their hobby. Knives are what they spend their disposable ( sometimes non-disposable ) income on. People who are into watches will save up until they can buy a Rolex. People who are into flashlights will save up until they can buy a McGizmo. People who are into knives will save up until they can get a Sebenza. Those who have taken the time with other brands can appreciate the subtle differences that make more expensive options more expensive. Even if the object doesn't work for that person they can still appreciate it for what it is. A Seiko, Surefire, Spyderco will all do the job for less money. Some will chose to spend extra for the subtle touches that make something premium.

I think a lot of times new people come on here and hear some of the old-timers raving about CRK. A new person hears all the constant praise and raving about the Sebenza and just jumps right in. When all that person receives is a white cardboard box containing a knife they can feel letdown.

Finally I just wanted to add that part of the value and premium image of the Sebenza is the fact that it is a proven design. The knives have been around a long time virtually unchanged. It is known how a Sebenza holds up to 5 or 10 years of every day carry. It is known that the knife can be re-bladed and re-furbished to like new whenever your heart desires. When you buy a Sebenza some of that value is knowing you can carry the knife for the rest of your life. Take $400 and break it down for ten years. It's like buying 1 $40 bargain knife a year.

Sorry for the long-ish post. Just wanted to say that the Sebenza is just a good knife. It's not a box of sunshine and moonbeams sent from heaven. Although I would rather have my Sebenza than sunshine and moonbeams.

 

[Rotte]

I don't know about the others, but I don't consider the Sebenza a "holy grail." It's a great knife to be sure, but it isn't a Jedi lightsaber or some magical piece of steel.

Definitely not a light-saber and I'm not one to believe in a magical Excalibur, but I also haven't found a better designed or manufactured folder, and that makes it my "grail" knife. Now I understand they are making them in S35.......

 

[Fferrell1]

Get one, carry it for a week, and if you don't like it you can always sell it (average time - 7min) on this forum. Oh, and you'll get what you paid for it almost to the penny. That in-and-of itself should speak volumes about the quality.

 

[Jarrett Fleming]

Over hyped? I would venture to say that 99% of the worlds population has never heard of, or seen a sebenza.

As I see it, there is no "hype." Only word of mouth from very satisfied customers. There are naysayers and haters, but I would bet most of those have never held a sebenza.




ETA: I find it hilarious that someone who obviously likes Emerson knives says the sebenza is over hyped. Ernest Emerson defines the word hype, and most of it is braggadocio.

Anyone that really likes knives knows about or has at least heard of Chris Reeve maybe "overhyped" would not be the correct way to put it. What I guess I meant is that what happened to philwar seems to be happening more and more often. People always read all of these great things about Chris Reeve knives (because they are great of course ) but when they actually buy one they are underwhelmed. Why? I don't know, when I received my sebenza it immediately became one of my favorite knives.
I do like Emerson knives they aren't my favorite but they are what started my knife addiction. I don't see threads on Emerson's as much as sebenza's though.

 

[vwb563]

The Sebenza is a case of the Emperor's new clothes: there's nothing there that can't be had at half the pricepoint, and some mass-produced factory higher-end folders outdo it performance-wise, spec-wise and F&F-wise.
I know this is gonna offend a lot of people but it's my honest, experience-based opinion.

Well in my experienced-based opinion I totally disagree! I have owned more Spydercos, Benchmades, Kershaws, and etc than I care to mention and although most of them were very good knives, none of them, and I mean NONE of them came even close to the Sebenzas I have owned as far as precise fit and finish and operational smoothness is concerned! Its kinda like this, if you could drive a Ford Pinto or a Lamborghini Diablo which one would you choose? Either one will get you there but the drive will be a heck of a lot more fun in the Lamborghini!

 

[The_Guide]

IMO, whats special about CRK's, is not how they look, though they look awesome, its how they work... I feel that you cant know the quality of a sebenza or umnumzaan until you USE it... There are a lot of other knives in this price range that look awesome as well, but not many that function this well.

Its like good wine... It looks like any other bottle of wine on the shelf, but its not until you take it down, open it, and TASTE it that you know why its so awesome...

Yes, I love CRK's