What is the best metal for a knife?

[mkwarren]

For pure sharpness a low alloy steel like Hitachi white, blue, super blue, AEB-L or simple carbon steels like 1095 are ideal. They will take and hold highly polished edges and remain stable even at low angles, assuming proper HT.

Edge retention isn't wear resistance. Wear resistance isn't edge retention. If you want to retain a low sharpness edge then consider high wear resistance steels.

There are steels specifically designed for cutlery. Some steels have a set of material properties that works well for small or large knives for a set of specific tasks. There is no one perfect steel for everything.

Do you have the skill and gear to sharpen high wear resistance steels?

What is the difference between edge retention and wear resistance?

Would edge retention deal with the edge metal corrosion? and wear resistance due to using the knife?

I have a table top grinder with some weird sharpening disk on top of it. i've used it to reprofile a blade, tho it was a cheap blade that i could never really get sharp from the factory. after its been treated i have basic stones for sharpening, and can buy sandpaper and abrasive films if i want to do a convex edge.

 

[i4Marc]

Cryo refers to cryogenic treatment. During the tempering procedure the blade is submerged in liquid nitrogen or other sub-zero medium. Even when you quench a blade in oil or water to room temp there is still movement in the steel, slight as it is. Think of a pane of glass in a 200 year old house. The glass which was flat when installed sags or moves over time. Same with steel to some extent. Cryo treatment stops and stabilizes the steel. Depending on the steel cryo can also add significantly to hardness. If I am mistaken about this, someone will be along shortly to correct it.

 

[mkwarren]

In my opinion, you are moving to farr, to fast - biting off more than you can chew.


You are looking at very expensive materials that will be very difficult to work.


Start soft, small, and cheap.

Start with a small simple knife, start with a simple annealed steel that will be easy to work.

Try 1084

If it is done properly, you will be pleased compared to commercial knives.


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ng-looking-for-advice?p=12774907#post12774907

Thanks for the info. i can read it over after i get back from work.

2 quick questions if you don't mind. how sharp do i get the blade before heat treatment? what is the difference between 1084 and 1095?

 

[mkwarren]

Cryo refers to cryogenic treatment. During the tempering procedure the blade is submerged in liquid nitrogen or other sub-zero medium. Even when you quench a blade in oil or water to room temp there is still movement in the steel, slight as it is. Think of a pane of glass in a 200 year old house. The glass which was flat when installed sags or moves over time. Same with steel to some extent. Cryo treatment stops and stabilizes the steel. Depending on the steel cryo can also add significantly to hardness. If I am mistaken about this, someone will be along shortly to correct it.

I see. i'v read a little about it. enough to know it existed. I haven't bothered to research much on the actual heat treatment side of things. I do not have the equipment to do it so knowing the process doesn't benefit me much. The guy that I have to do the heat treatment seems to know his stuff pretty well.

 

[zcd]

Thanks for the info. i can read it over after i get back from work.

2 quick questions if you don't mind. how sharp do i get the blade before heat treatment? what is the difference between 1084 and 1095?

Bring the edge to approximately the thickness of a dime prior to HT. 10xx steels are comprised of only iron and carbon. The xx refers to the % of carbon, so 1084 is 0.84% carbon, which is the sweet spot for a simple and correct HT.

 

[69_knives]

Source for HSS power hacksaw blades: http://www.victornet.com/alphabetic/Hacksaw-Blades/114.html

Sometimes you can find used ones at flea markets and second-hand stores.

the 14 x 1 1/2" 4Tpi say "High Speed Molybdenum" Blu-Mol®

You can carefully grind the already heat treated blade and make a knife. re-temper it if you like or simply grind it to your liking and send it to your knifemaker friend to completely redo the heat treat.

 

[i4Marc]

The difference is 11. What? Too easy?

Ok, the difference is that 1084 is eutectoid and 1095 is hyper eutectoid. Eutectoid steels have ~ .8% carbon. More than that and they are referred to as hypereutectoid, below that they are referred to as hypoeutectoid. Basically, when you heat treat 1084 you shouldn't have any excess carbides. 1095 has more carbon so it requires a more involved heat treat to deal with the excess carbides. When heat treated properly both make excellent blades. The blades I have made from 1084 slice like butta.

 

[oic0]

Parroting the other guys, geometry makes all the difference in the world. I would rather have a thin slicer made of 440a than a fat wedge made of unobtanium. At least I can easily sharpen the 440a and it will cut for a while. A fat wedge slices poorly even if the edge is indestructible. Conversely if the knife's job demands it be thick with a wide geometry, it likely isn't getting any benefit from a highly alloyed steel as toughness must be the primary concern (else it would be thinner).

 

[12345678910]

Thanks for the info. i can read it over after i get back from work.

2 quick questions if you don't mind. how sharp do i get the blade before heat treatment? what is the difference between 1084 and 1095?

1084 is eutectoid and
1095 is hyper eutectoid.

Eutectoid steels have ~ .8% carbon. More than that and they are referred to as hypereutectoid, below that they are referred to as hypoeutectoid.


1095 has more carbon so it requires a more involved heat treat to deal with the excess carbides
.

That's it
There is more info in the links


If you heat treat in vaccum or no air
Do all the work, but do not sharpen


If you heat treat in fire
Leave some thickness, you will have to remove the decarbed steel with abrasives after heat treat

A dime's thickness at the edge maybe less

 

[Razorsharp-Travis]

Fir a slicer. K390

 

[gredpe3]

I think you will push the envelope to make a good first knife period.It takes most of us a lot of time to get one good knife under the belt.You really should listen to the guys here and start at the beginning.1084 is some good steel for a knife maker to cut his teeth on.
Eddie

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I will be your best friend right now and say what you need to hear...not what you want to hear.

You have no experience, no equipment, haven't a clue about knifemaking, and want to make two really high tech knives and sell one. You will be a fool if you think this is possible and proceed in the fashion you have described.

If it is slicers you like, make a basic yanagi-ba or a fillet knife from 1084 or 1095 steel and do a full flat grind. You will need to read a lot of stickies and other tutorials ( all in the sticky thread) and spend several weeks working on your first knife. Be fully prepared to have it come out so-so at best. Once that one is done, make another in the same steel, and after that maybe try another in 1095 or Hitachi-white paper . Once you have made a dozen or more with consistently great results, try one in a super steel if you wish, but I can assure you it will not out-cut one made right in Hitachi white paper steel. There is so much more to knife steel selection and blade design than just a hard steel or a thin edge. If you want to know why, you will need to spend a few years learning metallurgy. It isn't something that can be explained or learned in a few posts and questions online.

Here is the bladeforums search engine that will get you lots of info on these subjects.
https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

 

[LX_Emergency]

listen to what the previous poster says.

The supersteels are not for beginners. ... and you are NOT so good that you should be asking money for your second knife.

You've made it clear that you really don't know what you're doing. so your focus should be on learning and learning only.

 

[mkwarren]

I agree. I do not expect much out of it when i first start. If i can make them decent enough to sell one here and there to a random joe that thinks its neet, itl make stepping stones to new better equipment.

And i probably wont get past m4 for quite some time. rex 121 will cost 115 a blade, and thats with one real small blade. And to be honest, after this first one, when i have the cash, ill probably take a step back, s30V maybe, or d2/4. High speed tool steels can be fun but nobody wants the maintenance anyway.

practice makes perfect. if nothing else i can use my old lawn mower blades as some people do.

Does anyone in america even sell zdp 189?

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

I wouldn't even use that M4 yet. Save it until your skill is worthy of the steel. I'm still a bit skeptical of this unnamed knife guy who is supposedly going to do the heat treat. Unless he's a professional heat treater, such as Peters, your best bet is to get and use the steel that he is personally best at, or else something easy to heat treat.

In the meantime, start with inexpensive steels. The inexpensive ones are plenty good, and if you're a beginner, you almost certainly don't have the skill level in either production or design to actually get the most out of the steel. Your equipment is probably not good enough to make anything really decent at a beginners skill level either. Is it even a belt grinder, or are you going to try using a bench grinder with the abrasive wheels?

 

[Rhinoknives1]

To add to what Stacy said,

Make your first knife because you want to learn how to make knives and learn the process. A well designed and thought out knife with good geometry out of a ho hum steel like 1084 or CPM-154 thats properly HTed will out preform any first attempt super steel knife.

Selling one of these is way down the road and with the little equipment you have and even less knowledge I think these high tech steel knives will be crude looking at best and their ability to be any improvement doubtful.

We are happy that you have urge to make knives but as others have said you are biting off most likely more than you can chew on a first attempt.

Now you are a big boy and if you want to try to prove us wrong? Have at it.

 

[mkwarren]

To add to what Stacy said,

Make your first knife because you want to learn how to make knives and learn the process. A well designed and thought out knife with good geometry out of a ho hum steel like 1084 or CPM-154 thats properly HTed will out preform any first attempt super steel knife.

Selling one of these is way down the road and with the little equipment you have and even less knowledge I think these high tech steel knives will be crude looking at best and their ability to be any improvement doubtful.

We are happy that you have urge to make knives but as others have said you are biting off most likely more than you can chew on a first attempt.

Now you are a big boy and if you want to try to prove us wrong? Have at it.

Well. Iv already ordered the steel. And it didnt cost all that much. So worse case senereo (and maybe best case senereo at the same time) will be it looking like a cobbled up mess. Ill learn from it and move on to the next one. I dont expect my first few knives of any metal to look like anything special.

 

[mkwarren]

I wouldn't even use that M4 yet. Save it until your skill is worthy of the steel. I'm still a bit skeptical of this unnamed knife guy who is supposedly going to do the heat treat. Unless he's a professional heat treater, such as Peters, your best bet is to get and use the steel that he is personally best at, or else something easy to heat treat.

In the meantime, start with inexpensive steels. The inexpensive ones are plenty good, and if you're a beginner, you almost certainly don't have the skill level in either production or design to actually get the most out of the steel. Your equipment is probably not good enough to make anything really decent at a beginners skill level either. Is it even a belt grinder, or are you going to try using a bench grinder with the abrasive wheels?

Bench grinder. Grin.

As i said. I dont expect much. But itl be fun.

I was reccomended the heat treat shop be a couple metal suppliers in the state. Havnt met them yet.

 

[Jastab]

ZDP-189 looks pretty dang good. 2 hardness points above m4. maybe i should have went with that.

Good luck getting a piece of zdp, from my understanding it can't be exported in raw form, only finished products...

 

[i4Marc]

Understand that nobody here is trying to shoot you down. We all started someplace and we know of what we speak, um, most of us anyway ha ha. To think that a knife is just a sharp piece of metal is grossly misunderstanding the venture. It is among the most simple and basic of tools but the making of one is vastly more complex and hard to do than most beginners think. As many have already stated, there are so many parameters and variables to consider when designing and building a knife. We want you to have the same excitement for the craft that we have. One of the quickest ways to lose it though is to start way over your head. 1084 is not just a baby steps steel. It is a very popular and super performing steel. The reason it is regularly recommended to beginners is because it is commonly available and hard to ruin the heat treat with even basic set-ups. We want you to succeed and to be proud of what you make. Start with some of the steels that have been suggested to you and spend lots of time reading and re-reading the stickies. Get a good understanding of the process and start to acquire the tools and materials you will need to do a good job. Don't rush to bang something out. Do the very best you can at every stage. Look through the threads. People post very nice knives as first or second attempts but they take time and care and they heed the advice of more experienced members here. Do not even think about selling a knife at this point. Your time is best spent educating yourself and practice, practice, practice! Don't forget to ask any questions you have about designs.