What is the best steel for this application???

R

rockrewls

Joined
Nov 14, 2003
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I am currently acessing what type of knife and/or steel I should purchase. I use my knife 99% of the time for skining and deboning the other 1% of the time it is used to cut a willow branch or some food no real prying or hammering or chopping. That being said I want to be able to put a extremly aggressive edge on it and have it hold for a very long time, keep in mind this blade will occasionally hit bone, so it must endure some punishment. I am looking for the absolute best steel type. I am considering BG-42 I would appreciate some very experienced answers thanks in advance.
Dale
 
Hello, and welcome to the forums!

It appears that you waitied about 2 hours for a response. Sometimes you can get quick responses on threads, other times you have to wait. It is the middle of the day on Saturday, and lots of folks are out shopping and such, so just be a bit patient when waiting for responses.

To answer your question, BG-42 would be great, as would S30V. S30V would be nice because it is a tough steel, so it should hold up to the punishment well. It is also quite stain resistant, so that would be good for your skinning/deboning work. I'm not sure what you mean by an aggressive edge though. Regardless, S30V will hold a good edge for a long time, so you'd do fine with it.

One caution though, if this is a custom order you may want to ask the maker what they think. Some makers only work with certain steels, and a maker might have a grat idea of exactly what you need. I'm sure many of the seasoned makers here have made more hunters than one could shake a stick at, so they are a great resource to ask.


And hello once again! Nice to see more Albertans on the forum. Lethbridge is warm(ish) and sunny today :)
 
Originally posted by rockrewls
I use my knife 99% of the time for skining and deboning ...cut a willow branch ... no real prying or hammering or chopping. ... want to be able to put a extremly aggressive edge on it and have it hold for a very long time, keep in mind this blade will occasionally hit bone, so it must endure some punishment. I am looking for the absolute best steel type. I am considering BG-42...Dale
Click to expand...

Do you value the property of being at least somewhat stainless?

For stainless steels:
At this juncture in time, S30V might be a small upgrade from BG-42. S90V will hold an edge better than either strictly speaking, but S90V is less tough than S30V for sure and probably about the same toughness or a bit less than BG-42. It doesn't sound like S90V would be a problem if you use the knife as indicated. (know that you really must have diamond stones to sharpen S90V with any efficiency at all).

D2 is quite a good edge holder, and is almost stainless, not quite, depending on the source and heat treat. A good D2 blade can be had, generally, at a cheaper price than for the CPM's, and is in the same general range as BG-42 in toughness (i.e. ok but not a tough steel).

For a non-stainless steels:
CPM 3V will hold an edge about like D2 (some say better) but will be extremely tough if treated to between Rc58 and Rc60.

CPM 10V will outlast all of the above in edge holding if run hard (at least Rc60), but again will sacrifice toughness to do so vs. say 3V.

Aggressiveness of edge:
depending on what you mean by this, you can accomplish this through the grit of stone you use. Example, I often leave a "coarse" diamond edge on my knives if I want a grabby edge, coarse in this case from DMT isn't exactly that coarse.

For the applications you mention (skinning, boning, might hit bone, but won't be used for chopping or prying), harder is better when it comes to heat treat, assuming you contract with a competent maker/heat treater. For many steels, and in very general terms again, Rc61 is about max before some brittleness creeps in. You could run 10V at maybe Rc62 and not have trouble with chipping if you use as you've indicated.

Next question: who are you looking at for a custom maker? If you want to push the CPM's to the limit and want a really nice hunting knife, I'd have a phone conversation with Phil Wilson. Here is an email address for Phil... unsure if it's still current:

seamount@bigplanet.com

Or see this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91928&highlight=phil+wilson+address
 
L605 also known as Haynes25 is about the toughest steel on earth. We machine components for nuclear applications and related needs out of it. In spare time we make knives and swords. Incredibly tough, can be edge hardened, keeps a nice polish..
only downside is price and the labor required to manufacture.
 
Originally posted by toolie
L605 also known as Haynes25 is about the toughest steel on earth. We machine components for nuclear applications and related needs out of it. In spare time we make knives and swords. Incredibly tough, can be edge hardened, keeps a nice polish..
only downside is price and the labor required to manufacture.
Click to expand...

Never heard of this stuff... but it's interesting stuff.

Alloy composition:
51% Co
20% Cr
15% W
10% Ni
1.5% Mn
0.10% C
3% Fe
0.4% Si

So it's a high Cobalt/Chrome alloy, in the same general way as Stellite and Talonite are also Co/Cr alloys. It's not really a steel per se. I don't know if that's really enough carbon to make any carbides in processing, so unclear it'll have the same wear/abrasion resistance as Stellite / Talonite.

If the Charpy V-notch numbers are anywhere similar in magnitude to what Charpy C-notch values are, 193 ft-lbs at room temp is quite tough.
http://www.haynesintl.com/25alloy/H3057Cis.htm

The corrosion resistance is comparable to Hastelloy X and Incolloy 625 by one set of tests, and in the neighborhood of Hastelloy C22 in boiling acid tests, and it far exceeds 316 SS in the same tests, if that means anything to any of you. Which means it's waaaay past the 440 stuff we knife people are used to, in the Stellite and Talonite area in very general terms.
http://www.haynesintl.com/25alloy/H3057Cor.htm

Only problem I see is the attainable hardness. Without digging real deep, looks like Rc48 is about max. This will put it into the Stellite and Talonite range. Edge roll will be an issue.
http://www.haynesintl.com/25alloy/H3057Chthp.htm

Also, unclear if it has the carbide load to be as wear resistant at Stellite/Talonite.

So I'm sticking with my earlier recommendations. Besides, some of the knifemakers already use the CPM's.
 
There is Canadian knife maker I met not to long ago who told me that he has done two moose with his D2 blade and has not had to sharpeen it between moose. It was a very nice blade that he had hardened beyond the comon Rc hardness of 60 to about 62 63 what a sharp blade.
 
I harden my D2 knife blades to HRC 60-61 and a friend processed three elk this year with a knife I made for him without sharpeneing.

This was beyond what I expected as I have not had that serious a test on one of these knives to date. I knew that you could do one critter without resharpening from experience.

I also really like S30V which is supposed to be even better. I haven't had a knife made from this put to the test yet. It is more expensive and is harder to grind and sharpen than the D2.

I would take either of these two steels.
 
If you don't mind a steel that is a little hard to sharpen and that will rust (it seems to pit when it rusts) fairly easily (it is more stain resistant than most non-stainless steels), then I recommend 3V. It is a top tier knife steel and one of my favorites.
 
With all due respect, I would have to say that my experiences with Stellite and Talonite lead me to find that the edge rolls much easier, much sooner than any of the premium steels run at Rc60. It is however quite easy to strop or sharpen afield if you take along a diamond stone.

I continue to feel like Stellite's and Talonite's niche is in an application where the user needs extreme corrosion resistance (e.g. salt water), and very high abrasive wear resistance, and can sacrifice ultimate "super sharp" edge holding for a long lasting but less super sharp edge. And the user can either tolerate edge roll, and can use a comparatively obtuse edge, and/or doesn't mind stropping the knife quite often in the field.

I'd take any of the steels I mentioned for the application at hand before the Co/Cr's.

Besides, if Tom Mayo preferentially likes S30V... well, let's just say he's got a new name to give to a whole series... TN30V? :D
 
The post above is very accurate.................HOWEVER, if S30V performs as well as 52100 (see BLADE magazine with Rob Simonichs picture on the cover/article on the extreme tests he ran in NC) then why not get a steel that has stainless properties?????? :confused: :eek: :confused:
 
tom mayo :

.. if S30V performs as well as 52100 (see BLADE magazine with Rob Simonichs picture on the cover/article on the extreme tests he ran in NC) then why not get a steel that has stainless properties??
Click to expand...

S30V has no where hear the impact toughess nor ductility of 52100, not to mention the ease of differential tempering (spring hard spine) of 52100.

Dale, a quality steel for that work would be 1095 at 66 HRC, which would give excellent edge retention. Preventing edge damage from cutting into bone is mainly an issue ofedge geometry. Run a primary edge angle of 5-10 degrees per side with a small secondary angle of 15-25 degrees per side. The secondary bevel should be ~0.5 mm wide. If the primary blade geometry is highly optomized like Wilson uses you don't need a dual edge profile. This assumes you are talking about cutting into bone, not trying to chop it apart. Cutting into bone isn't difficult, steel is much harder than bone and will easily do so without harm. It is the heavy dynamic chopping that can be a problem.


1095 at that hardness will stay sharp for quite some time and take a very fine and very sharp edge very easily with no significant burr formation. As an upgrade use M2 at the same hardness, this gives you more wear and corrosion resistance. I have been using such a blade recently (from Pinoy knife), and earlier today used it to take apart a whole chicken (8 lbs) for stock which included batoning right through the leg bones which are of decent size on a 8 lbs chicken [you have to cut the bones up to make quality stock]. No damage at all to the edge, not even reflection of light, it still had shaving ability after all the bone cutting (though slightly reduced from optimal). Edge is ground at ~20 degrees per side. I will be cutting it down shortly and repeating that kind of work to see where it fails among other things.

If you want to upgrade again get CPM-10V at the same hardness (Phil Wilson), or go more extreme with CPM-15V or 125V (or one of the REX hyper alloys which cna reach 72 HRC). With each step you are getting more wear resistance and greater overall edge retention as the hardness is also staying quite high (higher even with the REX alloys). S90V at 63/64 HRC would be your best bet for a stainless steel, you will only see a slight drop in edge retention assuming you run the same hardness (not a lot of makers doing this). Of course the edge geometry needs to be optomized, specifically the least amount of support possible (high flat or hollow grind), with the narrowest edge bevel possible (0.010" thick) at the lowest angle which will prevent damage (15 degrees, maybe 10 if you are really skilled).

Stellite/Talonite and other such alloys are horrible for such work as like Rob said they are very soft compared to steels and the edge rolls and dents similar to the lowest quality cutlery steel (AISI 420 is of similar hardness commonly used on fantasy knives).


-Cliff
 
Wasn't it a discussion of chipping and lack of performance from a knife made of 52100 that created such a stir here over the course of the summer?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around various steel information so bear with me. If the knife isn't used for chopping will impact resistance be helpful? Is this the same as abrasive resistance?

I assumed(perhaps incorrectly) that impact resistance would be significant in resisting shock from impact as in chopping. I converseley assumed that abrasive resistance would be significant in relation to cutting and edge retention.

Have my assumptions been incorrect? S30v appears to be very durable, resistant to abrasive forces and impact as well as providing lateral strength, which I have assumed can provide a knife that can be gound thinner and as a result provide better cutting ability. It also appears to have high resistance to corrosion.

Thanks
Mike
 
Cliff -

Where and/or, would A2 fit into your scale of upgrades from 52100?

Thanks, Chris
 
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