What is the best steel for this application???

mumbleypeg :

Wasn't it a discussion of chipping and lack of performance from a knife made of 52100 that created such a stir here over the course of the summer?
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That knife [Pronghorn] should not be used as an example of what to expect from 52100, look at the Swamp Rat line from Busse.

If the knife isn't used for chopping will impact resistance be helpful?
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No.

Is this the same as abrasive resistance?
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Impact resistance or impact toughness is a measure of how well the steel respond to sudden shocks, high energy impacts, specifically how strongly it resists the nucleation and propogation of fracture.

Abrasive or wear resistance, is how strongly the steel resists being ground. D2 for example has a very high abrasion resistance and a very low impact toughness. L6 has a very low wear resistance and a very high impact toughness.

S30v appears to be very durable, resistant to abrasive forces and impact as well as providing lateral strength ...
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S30v offers no sigificant advantages over ATS-34 class steels in regards to impact toughness, it also is worse (or just as bad) in regards to lateral strength (which is very dependent on flexibility of which S30V has none). S30V is being hyped as very tough with high lateral strength mainly by makers who have very low standards for both, and if you look back a few years said the same thing about ATS-34.

Quiet Bear :

Where and/or, would A2 fit into your scale of upgrades from 52100?
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Higher wear and corrosion resistance, much lower toughness and far lower ductility. A2 is generally only regarded as one of the tougher steels by those who frequently use ATS-34 class steels for large blades, in comparison to such steels pretty much anything appears to be tough.

-Cliff
 
"S30v offers no sigificant advantages over ATS-34 class steels in regards to impact toughness, it also is worse (or just as bad) in regards to lateral strength (which is very dependent on flexibility of which S30V has none). S30V is being hyped as very tough with high lateral strength mainly by makers who have very low standards for both, and if you look back a few years said the same thing about ATS-34."

Herein lies my confusion. If I look at steel charts, S30v indicates a propensity for lateral or transverse strength. If I look at the makers and manufacturers that use S30v it is a fairly impressive list.I notice that a number of knife producers that have used ATS-34 and\or 154cm as well as many that used BG42 or D-2( I notice less with D-2) have started using S30v. Is this driven more by market forces than performance?

Thanks

Mike
 
mumbleypeg :

If I look at steel charts, S30v indicates a propensity for lateral or transverse strength.
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S30V shows greater impact toughness along the grain than steels like ATS-34 [all CPM steels have similar properties due to general uniformity of grain]. However impact toughness of that type isn't significant in regards to forces seen by knives. It is the impact toughness against the grain which are critical in chipping and S30V is the same as ATS-34 in that regard.

In regards to strength, it is very strong, able to resist deformation highly as are all high alloy steels. However like those steels in general it has little to no ductility and will break under a low flex and thus isn't what I would call having high lateral strength.

In regards to the extreme hyped performance of S30V, look a the makers with such claims, first off all this is about a product they are selling, do you walk into a car dealer to find information, or simply phone up Newtel to see if they offer the best cell phone package. Secondly, and this is even more important, take a look at those makers and see how many complained about lack of toughness with ATS-34 *when they were using it* (or in any steel). This makes a very strong statement for the baseline for toughness being used.

Did you ever have a friend who never met a meal he didn't like, now consider what it meant to you when he strongly recommended the food at a certain resturant. It is likely you payed little attention to it. Same thing goes for the level of promoted steel hype. If you want to find unbiased information among makers look to those that will praise steels they are not using, and that will critize steels they are, telling the weakpoints and noting better steels which they can't use for various reasons (can't machine or heat treat usually).

As an example of how it should be done, Swamp Rat knives offers blades in D2 and SR101 (modifed 52100). The knives are completely different because there is a large change in the behavior of those two steels. Swamp Rat knives is also very clear that the D2 blades are not meant for prying nor heavy impacts (D2 is one of the more brittle tool steels), and that the SR101 series does not do as well in contacts against hard and abrasive media (as D2 has a much higher wear resistance). They have also done live demonstrations of their knives and furthermore guarantee the performance.


[the switch to S30V]

Is this driven more by market forces than performance?
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Steels are constantly being switched and hyped for greater performance and used as the main promotional tool in selling knives by some. Rarely are there any direct comparisons to the previous steel being used to illustrate the gain in performance for very obvious reasons, they are usually insignificant. Ask this very critical question, do the makers change the grind of the knife depending on the steel or will them make them all the same regardless of the materials [or do they adverterize them as being for different uses]. If there is no change then that should tell you something very important about their view of the difference in properties.

-Cliff
 
Well I would like to thank everyone who responded, this information has been quite helpful, and has caused me to narrow my scope of choices. Cliff you havent mentioned BG-42, any comment regaurding this steel?
again thanks to everyone.
Dale
 
Cliff,

While I profess no expertise in knife steel, I do have some working experience along the lines of the question presented. To date my best steel for the proposed use was and is VG-10. Particularly the Moran featherweight. I've never seen quality of edge and edge retention in any other steel soley used for cleaning of game animals. That is only my experience. In your opinion, how does VG-10 fare in this capacity? Not talking prybar work nor hard chopping, only the application as described by the originator of this thread.

Thanks.

Jim
 
Originally posted by rockrewls
I am currently acessing what type of knife and/or steel I should purchase. I use my knife 99% of the time for skining and deboning the other 1% of the time it is used to cut a willow branch or some food no real prying or hammering or chopping. That being said I want to be able to put a extremly aggressive edge on it and have it hold for a very long time, keep in mind this blade will occasionally hit bone, so it must endure some punishment. I am looking for the absolute best steel type. I am considering BG-42
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S30V, followed closely by BG42 would be my top choices. If greater toughness was needed (such as for chopping), I would prefer CPM-3V (although 3V is very tough and wear resistant, it is not a stainless steel).


VG10 followed by 154CM/ATS-34 would also be very good choices, although these are not as wear resistant. D2 is also very good but has less corrosion resistance than S30V and BG42.


Dale, any of these steels should serve you well. Things like blade shape/grind/size, ergonomics, sheath (or lock for a folding knife) are more important than the exact steel type.





- Frank
 
Onion :

... how does VG-10 fare in this capacity? Not talking prybar work nor hard chopping, only the application as described by the originator of this thread.
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Very well indeed. I have been using a Temperance in VG-10 and the geometry is very fine and acute and well suits the steel. It will take a very fine edge easily, and holds it well.

I used to not think much of comments made about ease of sharpening of various steels as I generally power sharpen (belt) and you can't really notice anything there as the belts remove all material very fast.

However after recent extended sessions of hand sharpening I would agree with comments made by Jeff Clark and others that some steels are easier to apply a fine edge than others, VG-10 is one of those.

-Cliff
 
Thanks Cliff.

I've looked over your reviews and paid attention to those concerning cutting ability of VG-10 compared to other steels. Can't remember the particulars but if memory serves there were two of those test. Did you ever do a review of the Moran Featherweight alone?

Edit* NM, I just found the link.
 
For the applications you mentioned D2 is the steel best suited. You can go for one of the boutique steels mentioned above but I doubt you will get a better all-round steel than D2. If you have any doubts check out what the users say on the Dozier Forum.

Why invest in a new steel when there is a proven one available. As long as D2 is heat-treated correctly it will last. If you combine its edge-holding capability with its strength and integrity you can't beat D2 as you are not looking for a wonder knife (if such an animal exists) but a cutting instrument.
 
I guess I have some tough choices to make, I want to select the best steel possible. I realize craftsmanship is very important but steel is also IMHO, as a knife is only as good as the steel, and as this probably will cost a fair bit of money I want to be sure I make the right choices. There have been so many steels mentioned I am still at a loss to determine which is best. I have learned that s30v is really only ats-34 with a new name and 154cm is also but has a slight alteration which apparently makes it a little better. I am leaning towards Bg-42,S90V,S10V,125V,Cpm440v,D2,M2,154cm So many choices and so little knowledge (meaning me)
 
"I am leaning towards Bg-42,S90V,S10V,125V,Cpm440v,D2,M2,154cm So many choices and so little knowledge (meaning me."

Check me on this but S30v is not ATS-34 with a new name. ATS 34 is a Japanese version of 154cm.The difference seems to be .1 Manganese.I believe that CPM440v is however known now as S90v.
Consult the steel FAQ's here and the steel guide at AGRussell. Knowledge is power.Enjoy your quest.

Mike
 
I think you should take a look at a Swamp Rat Howling Rat.

This knife is thin enough for you to do your skinning and deboning. Its tough enough to hit the occasional bone without chipping and can be used to cut wood.

It is 52100 so it will rust, but very quickly. It is coated, so rust is less of an issue.

Also, the knife is not very expensive.

The drawback will be the thickness. At 3/16, it may be a little thick for very fine work. The other caveat will be the handle, some people love it, others hate it.

I am sure that even Cliff Stamp will agree with this recommendation.

www.swamprat.com
 
JDEEBLADE :

For the applications you mentioned D2 is the steel best suited. You can go for one of the boutique steels mentioned above but I doubt you will get a better all-round steel than D2.
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CPM-10V would be a direct upgrade, much higher wear resistance with a significantly higher working hardness, with no loss in ductility or toughness. A Dozier would of course do very well indeed, high hollow grind on D2 is well suited to the described type of work. The D2 blades from Swamp Rat should also be excellent and even cheaper than Doziers already very low prices.

-Cliff
 
One thing that may be worth mention...

I have never had a D2 blade that I could get to perform the same as a D2 blade made by Dozier. His knives get sharper faster and hold the edge longer than any other D2 blade I've used (which is probably 15-20).

YMMV... but I doubt it ;)


This is not to say that there are not better steels or worse steels for a given purpose, I am specifically comparing one makers D2 to others.
 
Originally posted by rockrewls
I have learned that s30v is really only ats-34 with a new name
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Uh, no, not really. S30V contains vanadium. And contains small amount of nitrogen. Search with the engine to learn more, find a maker who can extract the performance.
Originally posted by rockrewls
...154cm is also [like ATS-34] but has a slight alteration which apparently makes it a little better.
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They are essentially identical. ATS-34 is Japanese (Hitachi) clone of 154CM. They may vary just very slightly, batch to batch, but the big difference is in the person doing the heat treating.
Originally posted by rockrewls
I am leaning towards Bg-42, S90V, S10V, 125V, Cpm440v, D2, M2,154cm
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You can feel comfortable ruling out CPM440V which is now renamed CPM S60V. It is IMO irrelevant with S90V being around, as S90V betters S60V in every measurable way (except in ease of heat treating and finishing, but that's the maker's problem, not yours). S30V and BG-42 are also better overall steels.

You can narrow further IF you want stainless. (10V, M2, 3V and 125V aren't stainless...D2 is borderline). If you don't mind a blade that will stain, 10V is probably the best choice of the bunch.

BG-42 is a slight upgrade from 154CM and ATS-34 so I'd rule those two out.

I think you are really down to, roughly in the order I think they rank:
Stainless:
S90V
S30V
BG-42

Non-stainless:
10V
3V
D2
125V
M2


(I added 3V, which is like D2 but much tougher and a bit less stain resistant).

Consider that very few people have used/heat treated 125V (Phil Wilson... anyone else?) and you may have one less to consider.

So:
1. stainless or not? (Generally speaking, you can find a non-stainless steel that will outperform any given stainless if corrosion resistance matters little to you)
2. what price ceiling are you working with?
 
Originally posted by rockrewls
I realize craftsmanship is very important but steel is also IMHO, as a knife is only as good as the steel
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While the above is generally true, two statements that are even more more strongly true are:
1. the knife is only as good as the heat treat
2. the overall grind/geometry of the blade strongly influence the slicing performance

Also, it is a disappointing fact but a truism:

"A mid-range steel given a great heat treat will make a decent blade, but a super steel given a poor heat treat will make a poor blade."

Hard to swallow. But ugly truth.

If you pick a super steel, you must also find a maker who is experienced with that steel and is dedicated to top quality heat treat. In fact, the more complex ("super") the steel, the more true this becomes, in general.
 
rdangerer

[in reference to a comment made about ATS-34 and S30V]

Uh, no, not really.
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That statement was likely based on the previous comments I made about the performance of S30V being very similar to ATS-34 class steels.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, rdangerer, whoever,

Over on another forum here at BF, it has been said several times that 3V is very prone to corrosion (comparing 3v unfavorably to "INFI"). Here it is being compared to D-2, a "semi-stainless." Just where does 3V fall out on the corrosion spectrum?
 
3V is prone to corrosion compared to INFI, D2 also pits far worse than INFI in salt water soaks, D2 pits worse than 3V as well. 3V does however have a higher level of corrosion resistance than steels like 52100 and L6 which can patina in literally minutes.

-Cliff
 
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