What is the best strop material for the highest polish possible that doesn't convex the apex?

Diemaker

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Apr 28, 2017
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It has to be stiff enough to not convex the apex, soft enough that it doesn't cause the abrasive to form deeper random scratches, and doesn't cause any scratches itself. So far I'm using veg-tanned cowhide and have yet to try balsa, but have some so it's on the to-do list. I think denim convexes the edge too much and surgical tape is too stiff. I am pretty shy of trying other fabrics for fear they will be like denim.

This is not for practical edges, looking for the absolute extreme for a BESS winning edge. I don't think the strop should have any abrasive qualities, that should be for the abrasives that are added separately.

What I have tried so far and my thoughts on it. All are mounted on EP aluminum blanks using 3M Super 77 with a finished thickness of .24".

Veg tanned cowhide, .08" thick smooth side out - My favorite but my gut is hesitant about going down to .1 micron diamond with it. My gut is wondering about balsa?
Denim, old 501s - I like how it polishes but convexes the edge noticeably more than leather.
Surgical tape - What I have is a plastic cloth and doesn't absorb the abrasive so it does not work.

Remember, I am looking for an extreme polished BESS edge so it can't convex the apex.
 
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Copper? I don't see that as having enough "give" to avoid random deeper scratches.
 
Just use very light pressure at the precise angle of the bevel. I'd load the strop with something like 0.5 micron diamonds or smaller.

The Wicked Edge works well for stropping with very light pressure.
 
When you look at the apex under a good microscope you realize just how easy it is to convex the last .002" of bevel, especially with diamond. The strop needs to be fairly stiff, stiffer than denim, and it can't scratch, so what is used is pretty important. I should add my thoughts on the stropping mediums I have tried so far to further this thread but I think it should be in the first thread vs here.
 
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Kangaroo leather is very thin and has no abrasive qualities. It works well as a very final polishing step but I much prefer Balsa wood for all previous polishing stages.

It would be best used to double up on the last compound, lets say you finish at 0.5 microns, you would first use 0.5 on the balsa then again on the leather. FYI, if you ever wanted the secret to a perfect polish... that was it.
 
Because copper is soft , diamonds would stuck/embed in copper .Some kind of hard backing sandpaper ?
How much experience do you have using copper as the stropping medium? What grits of what abrasives?
 
Balsa, but use a small amount of diamond paste, rub it in really well, wipe off the excess, and prepare to use a LOT of strokes. The idea is that there are no diamonds rolling around on the surface, because they're all embedded.

Oh, wait, I just described my regimen for preparing the balsa strops I use for final razor honing. What a strange coincidence.
 
So far I've only two viable options for what you've described.

1) Basswood. Balsa is too soft. Basswood is almost as hard as pine, but seems just a hair softer, with a finer more uniform grain, perfect for loading with compound.

2) Horse hide/horse leather. This has been the firmest leather I have found and my current go to option for my last strop. Now of course, like steel, leather is highly dependent on how it processed.

Essentially my opinion is the firmest leather you can possibly find is the best stropping medium in existence at this time. Rumor has it the maker of Gunny Juice is developing a man made stropping medium to outperform leather. There is no way the totality of human knowledge and engineering can not manufacture a medium that outperforms animal skin, we just haven't tried hard enough. Hopefully this new Gunny product is the answer.
 
Essentially my opinion is the firmest leather you can possibly find is the best stropping medium in existence at this time. Rumor has it the maker of Gunny Juice is developing a man made stropping medium to outperform leather. There is no way the totality of human knowledge and engineering can not manufacture a medium that outperforms animal skin, we just haven't tried hard enough.

Though not intended for the same application, have you tried industrial polishing pads? There are a lot of options. http://consumables.alliedhightech.com/Polishing-Cloths-s/1829.htm
 
How much experience do you have using copper as the stropping medium? What grits of what abrasives?
I have no experience , I haven't tried it yet .I have friend who works with precious stones,most often with rubies .There are plenty of them to be found around the place where I live .He uses ancient technology in stone processing known even before BC .On a piece of copper he applies diamond paste and roll big ball bearing over ..........he even use copper rod for drilling hole in stones .
So it occurred to me that the technique might be applicable in this case ?
About scratches ...how deep they will be depends from the pressure used not from the size of grit used .
Here's what he did with copper rod in about thirty minutes....now i believe it, he used a pretty fine diamonds. I believe that with a larger grit it can be done much , much faster.
This is tungsten carbide 82-84 Rockwell...
Ik3qwqI.jpg

WBfSv4s.jpg
 
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The problem you will run into is that if your strop doesn't produced some micro-convexity, you will make a foil-burr, just like edge trailing strokes on a stone do. If you want to keep the apex angle down, I think it makes more sense to sharpen at a lower angle and let the micro-convexity bring the angle up to 20 degrees.

If Shawn were using simple carbon steel, I'd suggest just honing the blade like a straight razor. But that won't work on S110V or whatever crazy steel he used.
 
It has to be stiff enough to not convex the apex, soft enough that it doesn't cause the abrasive to form deeper random scratches, and doesn't cause any scratches itself. So far I'm using veg-tanned cowhide and have yet to try balsa, but have some so it's on the to-do list. I think denim convexes the edge too much and surgical tape is too stiff. I am pretty shy of trying other fabrics for fear they will be like denim.

This is not for practical edges, looking for the absolute extreme for a BESS winning edge. I don't think the strop should have any abrasive qualities, that should be for the abrasives that are added separately.

What I have tried so far and my thoughts on it. All are mounted on EP aluminum blanks using 3M Super 77 with a finished thickness of .24".

Veg tanned cowhide, .08" thick smooth side out - My favorite but my gut is hesitant about going down to .1 micron diamond with it. My gut is wondering about balsa?
Denim, old 501s - I like how it polishes but convexes the edge noticeably more than leather.
Surgical tape - What I have is a plastic cloth and doesn't absorb the abrasive so it does not work.

Remember, I am looking for an extreme polished BESS edge so it can't convex the apex.

After much tinkering I use different types of paper over a hard backing such as a coarse bench stone or one of my old Washboard plates. The paper compresses with use or can be pre-compressed with a piece of metal or hardwood. Used plain, thin papers are capable of burnishing low carbide steels on their own. With compound they load rapidly but there is very little induced convexity. There has to be some, or it'll form a pressure burr.

For a polished apex with minimal convexity, use a stone or if the blade is low carbide and not too high Rockwell a smooth steel.
 
ToddS, will diamond not create a foil burr no matter what is used to strop for the BESS test? Since I think we are looking for the keenest edge at the lowest angle then diamond would be a good abrasive as it cuts with so low a force, so that fine apex deforms the least while cutting it. I have diamond down to .1 micron with each size up double the last. I only have a light microscope so probably won't be able to see the foil burr if it's less than .0005" or so in size. What do you suggest to remove that tiny foil burr, assuming there will be one?

I am thinking the target BESS test in mind will be with a top secret new SS for knives, just a guess.

HH, trying paper is easy since I am using EP polish tape blanks, and have a few seconds I can modify if need be. I can fold the paper over and take it to the back where the two edges come together to present a very even surface to the knife. I like the idea of keeping the softer bond to a minimum thickness. I expect it will be firmer than the leather. Are there specific papers for that ultimate polish? Vellum? What does compressing do? I have a vise with precision flat surfaces that I can get up to 12,000 lbs of clamp pressure to do this with. I do it when gluing the leather to the aluminum carriers, it really helps flatten them out!
 
The hardness of your strop is important in the polishing process, you will need to start with firmer strops and move to softer strops, but not too firm or too soft.

As mentioned, the depth of the scratch through varying pressure can do a lot in achieving a high polish. How the abrasive behaves on specific types of substrates is very important in polishing a cutting edge too but remember this is more than just polishing.

In my experience, basswood will cause scratches.
 
ToddS, will diamond not create a foil burr no matter what is used to strop for the BESS test? Since I think we are looking for the keenest edge at the lowest angle then diamond would be a good abrasive as it cuts with so low a force, so that fine apex deforms the least while cutting it. I have diamond down to .1 micron with each size up double the last. I only have a light microscope so probably won't be able to see the foil burr if it's less than .0005" or so in size. What do you suggest to remove that tiny foil burr, assuming there will be one?

I am thinking the target BESS test in mind will be with a top secret new SS for knives, just a guess.

At low angles like 8-10dps, you are running in to the same foil-burr problems that plagues straight razor honing. It's just not possible to remove a foil burr without breaking it off and leaving an undesirable apex. Best to avoid making one in the first place. The "simple straight razor honing" approach is fairly foolproof for carbon steel, but I'm not sure it will work for high VC steel. In any case, 0.25 micron diamond is the optimum for apex formation.

My advice would be to do what Clay Allison suggests and decrease the angle of the strop to try to find that sweet spot of just cleaning up the apex while avoiding making a burr.

It's nearly impossible to see a foil burr in an optical microscope if it's standing up, but cutting paper sometimes make it easier to see. Understand that they are typically 1-2 microns.
 
It has to be stiff enough to not convex the apex, soft enough that it doesn't cause the abrasive to form deeper random scratches, and doesn't cause any scratches itself. So far I'm using veg-tanned cowhide and have yet to try balsa, but have some so it's on the to-do list. I think denim convexes the edge too much and surgical tape is too stiff. I am pretty shy of trying other fabrics for fear they will be like denim.

This is not for practical edges, looking for the absolute extreme for a BESS winning edge. I don't think the strop should have any abrasive qualities, that should be for the abrasives that are added separately.

What I have tried so far and my thoughts on it. All are mounted on EP aluminum blanks using 3M Super 77 with a finished thickness of .24".

Veg tanned cowhide, .08" thick smooth side out - My favorite but my gut is hesitant about going down to .1 micron diamond with it. My gut is wondering about balsa?
Denim, old 501s - I like how it polishes but convexes the edge noticeably more than leather.
Surgical tape - What I have is a plastic cloth and doesn't absorb the abrasive so it does not work.

Remember, I am looking for an extreme polished BESS edge so it can't convex the apex.

My short suggestion:
I would say wood or painter's tape strop with diamond abrasive medium.

I can say objectively that I am capable of producing a what can be considered a genuinely sharp edge, and that I have a high standard for my edges. However, I have not used the BESS measuring device, so I cannot tell you precisely where my results fall. My suggestions are based off the net result of a hair-whittling edge (from root to tip, so as to avoid any kind of "cheating" factor involved with the edge catching the upward-facing scales of the hair when sliced tip-to-root). The results must also be obtained quickly, a criterion at which both of my suggestions excel.

My expansion on why I suggest these two options:
The results per unit of time cost and unit of financial cost are extremely high. So high, in fact, that my ultra-fine waterstones rarely see use (as amazing as those stones are, they are very expensive for me, so I am not really eager to throw them into my daily-beater lineup).
Waxing these surfaces with a paraffin candle and then rubbing something like 60k grit diamond powder on there provides some pretty hilarious results. Paraffin wax has proved to be a surprisingly effective free-abrasive substrate.
I like wood because it doesn't even really need to be waxed: you can just cross-sand it and soak it with a non-drying oil and then it retains a hard (relative to leather), yet minutely squishy surface that holds very fine compound well. Wood and diamond pair well. I have used many woods, and I prefer poplar for its softness and because it is readily available and cheap; I source mine at Home Depot. . I then sprinkle some 60k grit diamond powder on it and go ham. You can also use ready-made diamond paste effectively on wood. As a side note, I have found the Amazon pastes to provide excellent results.
What I like about painter's tape (on a wood or glass or metal backer) is that you can control your surface-give simply by adding additional layers of the tape, allowing you to find your own personal favorite thickness. If you use chromium oxide abrasive, it draws on extremely nicely, just like a crayon, but if you want to use diamond abrasive, you do have to wax the surface with a candle before applying diamond powder.
I have not found actual diamond pastes to be good for this application as you will likely throw the tape out after only a couple uses, rendering your diamond paste consumption far too high to be economical. Other substrates also suck. I have tried diamond powder in various oils, dry, with water, petroleum jelly, and spray adhesive. None of those provided me practical or even usable results whatsoever. Paraffin wax, however, offers excellent abrasive substrate characteristics: thin, durable, it holds the compound, it doesn't smear.
I don't like any other tapes. Hockey tape is too soft and wears down very poorly, albeit actually working fine, to some degree. Other tapes suck for obvious reasons. The idea isn't to use tape, necessarily, but to use a thin substrate that holds compound well, sticks to a backer quickly and easily, and is cheap, all things that make painter's tape a perfect fit.

A diamond-paste loaded wooden strop and painter's tape loaded with green chromium oxide are both staples in my daily edge maintenance and restoration lineup.

I will also suggest the Shapton glass 30k if your pursuit of extreme sharpness alleviates you of budgetary constraints. An edge off that and cleaned on bare leather has given me exceptional results.
 
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