What is the deal with N690 steel?

Knife Outlet · Aug 30, 2006

Daniel said:
You can consider VG10 and S30V the same, but I don't. You have your opinions and I have mine.:yawn:

Yes, the use is important. The heat treatment and hardening are also important. You go boy!

I note the lack of respect, son. What I said was that they were competitive, not the same. You put words in my mouth. In my experience S30V is very slightly more corrosion resistant and VG-10 is very slightly harder under normal Japanese heat treatment in the knives I've tested. Tell me what you think makes them fundamentally different?

rifon2 · Aug 30, 2006

Cliff Stamp said:
It is one of the definations of the word which means simply "higher priced". Like all english words it has other definations, "exceptional quality/performance" is another. That, unqualified, is a fairly useless defination to apply to steel though. 420J2 for example is far tougher, more ductile, easier to grind/polish and has a higher corrosion resistance than S30V. You can define a more productive steel in a given knife if you know the tasks and the judgement criteria, just like leather is a more productive sheathing material for some conditions but Kydex is for others.

-Cliff

But Cliff - without careful parsing of words, without nuanced defined terms...

Generally, in this thread where the poster is asking what about N690 quality;
S30V would be considered a "premium" steel and 420J2 would not.

Generally speaking.

Would you agree, maybe?

M Wadel · Aug 30, 2006

rifon2 said:
But Cliff - without careful parsing of words, without nuanced defined terms...

Generally, in this thread where the poster is asking what about N690 quality;
S30V would be considered a "premium" steel and 420J2 would not.

Generally speaking.

Would you agree, maybe?

different horses for different courses?

Quiet Storm · Aug 30, 2006

rifon2 said:
But Cliff - without careful parsing of words, without nuanced defined terms...

Generally, in this thread where the poster is asking what about N690 quality;
S30V would be considered a "premium" steel and 420J2 would not.

Generally speaking.

Would you agree, maybe?

I love this post.

M Wadel said:
different horses for different courses?

Well, obviously 90%+ of the knives we talk about here are either EDC fixed blades and folders or fighting/outdoor-type fixed blades. So if a steel excels in at least one of these applications, it is considered "premium".

Case in point: the guy who started this thread asked about the Monochrome, a very typical EDC folder and the Fulcrum, a typical heavy-duty EDC folder. He obviously wants to know whether N690 is a suitable steel for these purposes. It is.
If he had specifically asked whether N690 is a good steel for a 20" machete or straight razor, the replies would have been different of course.

Yes, 420J2 makes for a better diving knife than 52100, but since this is not diveforums.com, few people see that as a major concern - generally speaking.

hardheart · Aug 30, 2006

Knife Outlet said:
Why is that? You can heat treat many steels to a level at which they are harder and more difficult to sharpen but take on other unpleasant characteristics like brittleness. Some applications need toughness more than hardness. The more "premium" steel (whatever that means) may not be the best choice for the application. I wouldn't think ZDP189 would make a very good axe head, as an example. It would make a very expensive one, however, that is really difficult to sharpen.

That's exactly what I mean, versions of knives with steels of lower machinability seem to go for 'premium' prices.

M Wadel · Aug 30, 2006

youre right its about priorities. one is tougher but doesnt hold an edge very long. personally i would be satisfied with any of the "high end" steels mentioned here

Knife Outlet · Aug 30, 2006

hardheart said:
That's exactly what I mean, versions of knives with steels of lower machinability seem to go for 'premium' prices.

Which are those? I'm still confused.

Perhaps you're referring to the price of knives rather than the price of steel. The price of the steel used in a knife is usually fairly insignificant. The machinability, of course, affects the price of a knife a lot more than the cost of the steel because it affects the speed of manufacture. But more than the machinability is the volume of the knives made against the overhead of the company making them and, of course, there are intangible things like brand perception that affect knife prices.

In other words, a larger company can make knives at a lower cost per unit than any of the very small companies in the industry. People will pay a premium for the brand stamped on the tang that has nothing to do with the cost of manufacture or the quality of the product. I'm sure you understand that.

The price of steel and the price of a finished knife rarely have anything in common. I was talking about steel prices. I wonder if we are talking about two different things.

Cliff Stamp · Aug 30, 2006

rifon2 said:
Generally, in this thread where the poster is asking what about N690 quality;
S30V would be considered a "premium" steel and 420J2 would not.

Yes, that is one of the fundamental problems in the cutlery industry, usually promoted by the people selling the "premium" steels. As M Wadel noted they are two different materials made for two different purposes. A comparison between S30V and 420J2 is similar to M2 vs L6. There are similar differences in hardness, wear resistance and toughness/ductility, corrosion resistance and even cost.

-Cliff

hardheart · Aug 30, 2006

Fred, agreed. I actually made the same point (not so clearly) in the AUS8 thread. I mean prices of knives, not the separate materials. People are screaming for ZDP versions of any and every knife now, and I almost think they want to pay double just to get a different steel. I guess that somehow makes it more special. Production knives really shouldn't be prestige pieces imo.

rifon2 · Aug 31, 2006

Cliff Stamp said:
As M Wadel noted they are two different materials made for two different purposes.
A comparison between S30V and 420J2 is similar to M2 vs L6.
-Cliff

True indeed.

Blop · Aug 31, 2006

I always considered "Premium" to the german "Edelstahl", but maybe i am wrong.

If i get it right, "Edelstahl" considers the purity of the product. But again, maybe i am wrong.

It has no effect on its ability as a blade steel nor does it tell you it is stainless. There are non - stainless "Edelstähle".

Blop · Aug 31, 2006

huugh said:
Composition

AFAIK it is made only by Bohler so if you consider it advantage (compared to chinese and spanish 440Cs). Not bad but not a premium IMHO.

:foot:
I love this thread!

How can you say, N690 is not premium, while quoting a wikipedia explanation on the AUS8 - topic, wich shows, N690 is a premium steel because of its purity.

Alan Molstad · Aug 31, 2006

lets say you were looking for a knife and you find two knives that are identical, one made out of 5160 and the other out of N690 .

With future use as your ONLY criteria, what things would tip things in favor of the N690 knife?

Blop · Aug 31, 2006

Stainless!

ginshun · Aug 31, 2006

Thanks for all the great replies.

It is pretty much as I suspected really if its as good as a properly done 440C, then its good enough for me.

Although bread and paper can be pretty tough on my knives, so maybe I'll have to stick with Super ZDP440S34RW154CPM90V just to be safe.

Redguy · Aug 31, 2006

ginshun said:
Thanks for all the great replies.

It is pretty much as I suspected really if its as good as a properly done 440C, then its good enough for me.

It's even better. The Monocrome is a very good knife anyway and for $30 it's one heck of a deal. I have only one gripe against it; the handle is a bit narrow if your hands are larger than average.

Redguy · Aug 31, 2006

ginshun said:
What is the deal with N690 steel?
I see it used in the $35 Benchmade Monochrome, and also in the $250 Extrema Ratio Fulcrum.

This just seams odd to me.

Hey, what is the deal with S30V steel? It's used in $40 S30V Spyderco Native and likewise in the $400 Strider SMF.

Cliff Stamp · Aug 31, 2006

Or 1095, found in the cheapest production machetes and forged blades costing thousands.

-Cliff

ginshun · Aug 31, 2006

Redguy said:
Hey, what is the deal with S30V steel? It's used in $40 S30V Spyderco Native and likewise in the $400 Strider SMF.

Doh! I even have both a Native and a SnG!

/slaps forehead/

3Guardsmen · Sep 1, 2006

In the latest issue of "Tactical Knives", Jerry Hossom is quoted (in the artical on the upcoming Spyderco/Hossom fixed blades collaboration) as having said that "N690 behaves a lot like BG-42." Jerry knows his stuff, so it must be pretty decent steel.

Regards,
3G