What is the difference between these two steels?

I have Japanese laminated blade (warikomi) knife with HSS in core and stainless on the sides - "Golden Deer". Unfortunately this is only small thin boning knife. Lets wait until they realise what a great potential here for "tactical" folders etc.

GoldenDeer-HSS-01.jpg


Only cons. it that it easily goes through cutting board.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I am with the guys that tend to pay more attention to the ergonomics of the knife. Many deer camps are still full of guys using knives with steels that are considered to be 'sub standard' but have done so for years because it works for them in the package it came in.

And 440C is a premium steel that compares favorably to any of the so called new super steels. There is nothing wrong with this steel at all. When I was younger and before Gerber got bought out by Fiskars, they made 'premium knives' out of 440C and were considered to be the knife company to beat and all for their premium slim line folders and fixed blades made of this top line steel in their blades. I have used these old knives for years and they compare to anything else out there for cutting ability and usefulness.

But in answer to your question. Either steel is a good steel but don't let that be the deciding factor. Go with what works in your hand best.
 
The M2 blade will be tougher and more flexible with less likely to pit if left wet, with both having similar edge retention. I would pick the M2 blade then send it to Phil Wilson for a sensible hardening and have him regrind the edge as well. Then you will have a blade which will outlast the D2 one several times over and be much easier to resharpen and cut way better.

-Cliff
 
Why do I find it harder to sharpen 440C? When I sharpen VG-10 in the same manner I do with 440C it's a lot easier. I also have noticed 440C doesn't hold an edge as long as say VG-10. You guys saying, oh people cannot tell the difference are wrong. I've sharpened/used 420JS, 440C, VG-10, ATS-55, AUS-6, and a few others. So far 420JS is the worst I've handled, and everybody seems to agree on that point. As for the 440C, I just cannot seem to put a good edge on it and once I get lucky and get that shaving sharp edge it doesn't last but more than a few hours of use. As for VG-10 I can sharpen it up to shaving sharp in a matter of 60 strokes (+/- 20) on my crock sticks, and the edge will last days if not over a week. A lot of you will say now, well what is this guy cutting? Mainly boxes and meat, and yes I know cardboard will dull a knife for many reasons, but I'm not abusing any edge I use. What is the difference between say 440C and VG-10? What are the possibilities? Did I get a bad batch of knives with 440C? Should I buy the all-mighty sharpmaker and give my 440C knives a second chance? I've been using and sharpening knives since I was 5, dad taught me well, but maybe I'm doing something wrong.
 
I do a lot of whittling and use primarily 1095 or 01 and some 52100 steel blades for most of this but I also whittle with my pocket knife. These days that can vary from day to day. I do not notice any big difference in edge holding over the 440C vs the VG10 or the 154CM blades I have. They all need a few strops after about every 15 minutes of carving on hard wood. I get about the same edge retention from one to the other when carving on say a block of walnut or hickory. It may have to do with heat treatment more than anything else. Each one has it's own best place to be for optimum use and edge holding as Cliff pointed out.

I still prefer the old 150 year old steels for my carving though. They are easier to sharpen and hold up and cut just as well as any of the stainless steels if not just a bit better for push cuts. I've found that with the stainless they cut better with a slicing motion vs just pushing it in. Not sure why that is exactly. Just my observation.
 
nelsonmc said:
Why do I find it harder to sharpen 440C?

I also have noticed 440C doesn't hold an edge as long as say VG-10.
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Are the edges on the 440C knives of similar angle and thickness? What is the angle?

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Are the edges on the 440C knives of similar angle and thickness? What is the angle?

-Cliff
Click to expand...

The angle on my Crock Sticks are 17 and 25, using medium and fine ceramic rods.That doesn't really matter too much though because I adjust by feel the angle of the knife hitting the sticks. As for the blades, some are similar, some are not.
 
I started a thread in the makers bit but it didn't get much response. I think the M2/D2 performance has been coverd. I'm guessing that M2 being a HSS will be easier to work with after HT

Why don't I come across many knives made from it? How does it fair against S30V as a field knife (cutting wood)
 
Edge retention and ease of sharpening can be heavily influenced by edge geometry so it is possible for an inferior steel to outperform a superior one if the inferior one has a more optimal geometry.

I asked about the angle as there have been reported problems of edge breakouts on 440C if the angles were low, but this is with angles significantly more acute than the ones you listed.

M2 is more expensive which is why it isn't use a lot, plus it isn't stainless which is critical for a lot of people.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I would pick the M2 blade then send it to Phil Wilson for a sensible hardening and have him regrind the edge as well.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

Cliff,

May you please, give me some contact to Phil Wilson. I have CPM S90V, CPM M4 bars who nobody like to HT.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
the thing with 440c is that most people notice that while it wont hold a fine edge too long, it'll hold the "utility edge" fairly well
 
I can add one small bit of info regarding M2;

it's a bitch to polish.



If you don't believe me, just drop Jerry Hossom an email. ;)
 
D2 isn't trivial either. My brother likes to high polish his knives which is retarded considering what he does with them, but anyway he was cured of that by a Mel Sorg D2 blade with full cryo at 62 HRC.

-Cliff
 
if looking at the 710. id get a 154cm version. I just ordered one. Should be here in a week.

I didnt wnat to deal with the M2 rusting and such
 
I rather like a steel that 'ages' with me as I carry it. I used to take my blades of high carbon steel and put them an acetone bath to clean them off. Then I'd wipe them and submerge them in vinegar warmed up in a frying pan on the stove top. When the blade turned to a uniform patina of blue or gray on one side I'd turn it over and do the other and then install it on the handle or in the folder. I rather like that blue steel look as I think it gives character to a handmade blade in particular. I've done this with 1095 and 01 a number of times. I would suspect vinegar would do the same thing to an M2 blade.
 
STR,
I like authentic charcter and authentic aging and scraching on the knife that result from real use. What u describe is some where between fake aging and modification :)

Its a nice tip though for modification but not to add character.
u must luv ur blades though :)

cheers man
 
Unearth I didnt wnat to deal with the M2 rusting and such[/QUOTE said:
I've been carring a BM710HSSR (M2) for around 4 years now. I've never seen a HINT of rust. I don't even oil it that frequently. I have wiped it with a Tuff Cloth now and then over the years. Other than that I try to keep it clean and dry. I also put a mirror polish on the edge, up to the black coating, to help prevent rust. After all these years the black coating is rubbing off in spots, but still no rust.

I have enjoyed my BM710 in M2. Some people here have observed they can put a sharper (more polished) edge on the M2 blades because of the finer grain in the steel. This maybe true, I don't know, but even if it is true most people probably wouldn't polish the edge to that degree and may not want such a highly polished edge for their cutting tasks.
Click to expand...
 
Unearth said:
if looking at the 710. id get a 154cm version. I just ordered one. Should be here in a week.

I didnt wnat to deal with the M2 rusting and such
Click to expand...

I ordered and got 710HS more then a year ago and so far never dealed with "the M2 usting and such".

benchmade710-C.jpg


Thanks, Vassili.
 
Unearth said:
if looking at the 710. id get a 154cm version. I just ordered one. Should be here in a week.

I didnt wnat to deal with the M2 rusting and such
Click to expand...

I had been quite unsure about that too, but after buying two kitchen knives made from pure .75% carbon steel i was cured. I thought to teach my wife to take care of the blade and let rest with fresh apple jiuce. After good three hours with no rust just a little black oxyd i learned that rust isn´t that much inportant where i live as it may by at or on sea or in saltwater.

Better think about your order?
 
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