What is the future of old ivory Buck knives?

[Happy Hippo]

I have an opportunity to buy a nice set of custom Bucks. But they are in ivory. They are expensive. I think these are real ivory too, not Mastodon.

Now, I don't like the idea of beautiful animals being killed just for their ivory. And I surely don't want to promote that. And I know currently that old ivory is generally exempt from bans on using ivory (but maybe not everywhere). The knife set doesn't come with any paperwork, so I can't prove how old it is. I also know that the animal already died and me not getting the knife isn't going to save it.

I feel that the rules on use of ivory will get more strict as time goes by and, if I ever try to sell it, it may be very difficult to sell. My inclination is to pass on it. Am I being too worried about it? The worm in my brain wants it because it's a material that I don't currently have a lot of in my collection. But my inner "walrus" says not to touch it.

 

[abbydaddy]

Ivory is a very nice feeling material. It makes good handles. The knives you are thinking of buying already have the handles.

If the material is morally problematic for you, don't buy them. If resale is your primary consideration, don't buy them. If the uncertainty is too much for you to tolerate, don't buy them.

If the other considerations aren't that important to you, and you mostly want to buy the knives to have a nice set of ivory handled knives to use, buy them.

 

[tongueriver]

The over reaction to hunting elephant in Africa in the 1960s and later had disastrous consequences for the elephants and the native people in their area. Revenue to the natives and their governments, and valued meat to the natives disappeared. Chinese (and other) funded poachers knocked elephants and rhino populations into the ground. Science and dedicated conservationists and hunters finally got the well-meaning disaster turned around. Now money from wealthy hunters (think a quarter million $ per elephant hunt house and back to house!) is being poured into conservation, anti-poaching enforcement and management of elephants. The meat all goes to the locals. The elephant herds are prospering and so is the ecosystem on which they depend. A win-win for everyone, especially the elephants. Unfortunately, most folk have not been privy to the evolution of the elephant situation in Africa.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

The over reaction to hunting elephant in Africa in the 1960s and later had disastrous consequences for the elephants and the native people in their area. Revenue to the natives and their governments, and valued meat to the natives disappeared. Chinese (and other) funded poachers knocked elephants and rhino populations into the ground. Science and dedicated conservationists and hunters finally got the well-meaning disaster turned around. Now money from wealthy hunters (think a quarter million $ per elephant hunt house and back to house!) is being poured into conservation, anti-poaching enforcement and management of elephants. The meat all goes to the locals. The elephant herds are prospering and so is the ecosystem on which they depend. A win-win for everyone, especially the elephants. Unfortunately, most folk have not been privy to the evolution of the elephant situation in Africa.

This is true. Not enough people understand the economics of elephants and how controlled hunting is good for Africa and actually protects the elephants.

Also, a lot of folks don’t know that rhino horns grow back if they aren’t cut down to the nerves. Africa is sitting on a ton of value in bank safes full of rhino horn they can’t sell. There is more to my story, but unsure if this is the proper thread.

To stay on topic, I do agree with abbydaddy ‘s assessment.

 

[oldmanwilly]

Ivory is a very nice feeling material. It makes good handles. The knives you are thinking of buying already have the handles.

If the material is morally problematic for you, don't buy them. If resale is your primary consideration, don't buy them. If the uncertainty is too much for you to tolerate, don't buy them.

If the other considerations aren't that important to you, and you mostly want to buy the knives to have a nice set of ivory handled knives to use, buy them.

The over reaction to hunting elephant in Africa in the 1960s and later had disastrous consequences for the elephants and the native people in their area. Revenue to the natives and their governments, and valued meat to the natives disappeared. Chinese (and other) funded poachers knocked elephants and rhino populations into the ground. Science and dedicated conservationists and hunters finally got the well-meaning disaster turned around. Now money from wealthy hunters (think a quarter million $ per elephant hunt house and back to house!) is being poured into conservation, anti-poaching enforcement and management of elephants. The meat all goes to the locals. The elephant herds are prospering and so is the ecosystem on which they depend. A win-win for everyone, especially the elephants. Unfortunately, most folk have not been privy to the evolution of the elephant situation in Africa.

Excellent points, well said to the both of you. I could not agree more.

 

[Happy Hippo]

Yeah, thanks. My inclination is to let someone else buy them. If they weren't so expensive, maybe the situation would be different. But I would hate to have something in my collection that, God forbid, I (or my son when I pass) would have a hard time selling if we needed the money.

 

[texpat]

This is true. Not enough people understand the economics of elephants and how controlled hunting is good for Africa and actually protects the elephants.

Most people have zero idea of how important hunters and fisherman are to conservation. Hunters are the backbone and the bank for most conservation efforts worldwide.

When I was a kid down in Texas, almost all the land was privately owned, I sat and watched for decades as Texas used money from hunting/fishing licenses to buy back land, heck I did my part, lol. They bought back wetlands and woodlands, meadow and open range and spent money re-building the health of those environments.

Today there's over a million acres of type 2 public hunting land in Texas, accessible through a secondary license program that's not expensive, and those areas are well and carefully managed and host an epic diversity of wildlife.

Yowling wanna-be liberals who claim to be "conservationists", contributed zero to that effort. Conservation-minded sportsmen/women paid for it ALL.

 

[MT_Pokt]

Yeah, thanks. My inclination is to let someone else buy them. If they weren't so expensive, maybe the situation would be different. But I would hate to have something in my collection that, God forbid, I (or my son when I pass) would have a hard time selling if we needed the money.

If they are factory Buck customs and have serial numbers, the provenance is recorded at Buck, and you can get copies. I would definitely buy them.
On the other hand, if they don't have numbers, you risk them being post-ban ivory and have the moral issue to contend with.
Moving them to another collector in the future shouldn't be an issue either way, even if all you have is record of who got them from who.
Someone collecting Bucks in the future will certainly be interested. Pre-ban Ivory isn't a bad investment.

 

[tongueriver]

Mine is the lower of these two knives. It's future is right here; not going anywhere soon.

 

[Happy Hippo]

Mine is the lower of these two knives. It's future is right here; not going anywhere soon.

View attachment 2571835View attachment 2571836View attachment 2571837

Nice, those are beautiful.

They are not official Buck customs. But they are made by a well-known customizer of many years. But there is only word of mouth on that.

 

[STEELHEADBULLY]

I have an opportunity to buy a nice set of custom Bucks. But they are in ivory. They are expensive. I think these are real ivory too, not Mastodon.

Now, I don't like the idea of beautiful animals being killed just for their ivory. And I surely don't want to promote that. And I know currently that old ivory is generally exempt from bans on using ivory (but maybe not everywhere). The knife set doesn't come with any paperwork, so I can't prove how old it is. I also know that the animal already died and me not getting the knife isn't going to save it.

I feel that the rules on use of ivory will get more strict as time goes by and, if I ever try to sell it, it may be very difficult to sell. My inclination is to pass on it. Am I being too worried about it? The worm in my brain wants it because it's a material that I don't currently have a lot of in my collection. But my inner "walrus" says not to touch it.

Are you implying Mastodon Ivory is fake? I believe it is real, it just isn't Elephant Ivory. When I think of fake Ivory, I think of Man-made materials imitating the qualities of real Ivory, whichever real Ivory that might be (Elephant, Walrus, Elk, Mastodon, mammoth, etc.) I tend to stay away from Elephant Ivory as certain states have asinine laws regarding it, NY and CA being the worst. I do worry that a lot of my higher value Buck knives with Mastodon handles will not hold their value due to our backwards thinking society, but who knows, maybe the rarity of them will make them even more valuable to the right person down the road.

Mine is the lower of these two knives. It's future is right here; not going anywhere soon.

View attachment 2571835View attachment 2571836View attachment 2571837

Great looking knives, and wonderful pictures!!

A few More pics!

 

[Happy Hippo]

Are you implying Mastodon Ivory is fake? I believe it is real, it just isn't Elephant Ivory. When I think of fake Ivory, I think of Man-made materials imitating the qualities of real Ivory, whichever real Ivory that might be (Elephant, Walrus, Elk, Mastodon, mammoth, etc.) I tend to stay away from Elephant Ivory as certain states have asinine laws regarding it, NY and CA being the worst. I do worry that a lot of my higher value Buck knives with Mastodon handles will not hold their value due to our backwards thinking society, but who knows, maybe the rarity of them will make them even more valuable to the right person down the road.




Great looking knives, and wonderful pictures!!

A few More pics!

View attachment 2572132View attachment 2572133View attachment 2572134View attachment 2572135View attachment 2572136View attachment 2572137View attachment 2572138View attachment 2572139View attachment 2572140View attachment 2572141

No, I am saying, for me, it is different because those animals are already extinct. So, yes, of course there is Mastodon ivory. I wish I had more of it. I do have a few pieces. I'd post some but I have no more space for posting pictures on the Forum.

Edit: But you might be right about the concern about ivory from extant animals affecting the value of ivory from extinct animals. I think in some areas, even Mastodon is banned.

 

[bucksway]

I have a few Ivory 112's both Mastodon and Elephant and they are highlightes of my collection. Selling on eBay might be a problem down the road but privately? No..The folks drawn to high end Bucks will always be looking for them and it won't be a problem. The biggest issue is how to price them! Look at the early Custom shop it was always expensive. They are not flipper Bucks and are very very seldom sold or even offered.

 

[Happy Hippo]

I have a few Ivory 112's both Mastodon and Elephant and they are highlightes of my collection. Selling on eBay might be a problem down the road but privately? No..The folks drawn to high end Bucks will always be looking for them and it won't be a problem. The biggest issue is how to price them! Look at the early Custom shop it was always expensive. They are not flipper Bucks and are very very seldom sold or even offered.

I have a couple Mastodon 112s and I agree, they are among the finest looking in my collection. I don't remember if I have any other ivory 112s - I think not. But I have some other Buck models that are ivory - not sure of the ivory source. I have this image in my mind that I saw decades ago of elephants lying to rot in the African sun with their tusks gouged out. It was very disturbing to see and makes me think twice about ivory.

 

[tongueriver]

I have this image in my mind that I saw decades ago of elephants lying to rot in the African sun with their tusks gouged out.

Yep; poaching. All that poached ivory goes/went to Russia and China. Little or none to the U.S. Current legal elephant hunting is the best and most effective way to combat poaching. Huge revenue from hunters now goes into that war against poachers. Law enforcement now has directive to kill on sight poachers, in most countries in Africa where elephants are found. It may interest some people that it is necessary from time to time for culls of elephants are necessary to keep them from destroying their own habitat. I passionately love elephants and wish I could some day see them for real and up close, but it is not to be.

 

[DavidABQ]

They are beautiful knives but I think I would let them go down the road. Without some sort of documentation that they are pre-ban ivory I wouldn’t feel good about owning them.

 

[Happy Hippo]

Yep; poaching. All that poached ivory goes/went to Russia and China. Little or none to the U.S. Current legal elephant hunting is the best and most effective way to combat poaching. Huge revenue from hunters now goes into that war against poachers. Law enforcement now has directive to kill on sight poachers, in most countries in Africa where elephants are found. It may interest some people that it is necessary from time to time for culls of elephants are necessary to keep them from destroying their own habitat. I passionately love elephants and wish I could some day see them for real and up close, but it is not to be.

I have a colleague at work who is Indian. His family in India has a large farm. He hates elephants because of the damage they do. He said that they have a large Jurassic park like fence around their property but they still get in. I love elephants too. - and all animals, really. Well, most.

 

[bucksway]

Who really wiped out a lot of elephants was the Romans.. They absolutely loved Ivory. Man made materials have gotten so close to the real thing in the last few years but as a collector the rarity of Old Custom Shop Ivory Bucks and early Customs will always draw me to them. Recently made Bucks with Ivory do NOT hold the same appeal to me. A good allegory might be a 'restored' 60's muscle car to a 100% factory original paint car. I just want the original.
I can't change the past and with 7-8 billion folks on earth now that have to eat and have a place to live conflict with elephants who need a very large wild land area to survive I think they are not going to make it. They will end up like our Buffalo in America. Almost extinction and then a few preserves. Maybe newly made Ivory knives should be banned but my Ivory Bucks from 30 40 50 years ago should not put me in jail or fined or confiscated..

 

[Happy Hippo]

Who really wiped out a lot of elephants was the Romans.. They absolutely loved Ivory. Man made materials have gotten so close to the real thing in the last few years but as a collector the rarity of Old Custom Shop Ivory Bucks and early Customs will always draw me to them. Recently made Bucks with Ivory do NOT hold the same appeal to me. A good allegory might be a 'restored' 60's muscle car to a 100% factory original paint car. I just want the original.
I can't change the past and with 7-8 billion folks on earth now that have to eat and have a place to live conflict with elephants who need a very large wild land area to survive I think they are not going to make it. They will end up like our Buffalo in America. Almost extinction and then a few preserves. Maybe newly made Ivory knives should be banned but my Ivory Bucks from 30 40 50 years ago should not put me in jail or fined or confiscated..

I agree with what you said about old ivory. But one problem, at least I have, is that some of my ivory Bucks have no paperwork and I can't prove how old the ivory is. I know how old the knife is but not the ivory. Asian ivory is supposed to be before 1977 and African ivory before 1989. And laws keep changing and vary from state to state. And it is confusing because do the laws apply to raw ivory or finished pieces made from ivory. China was a big.consumer of ivory and I think they finally banned import of new ivory. I wouldn't be surprised in 50 years the laws on ivory (and even mastodon) would be very strict almost everywhere in the world. I have some nice Case ivory pieces too. One guy sold me a Buck I ivory piece, telling me it was bone.

 

[bucksway]

One old white handled Buck worth more than Ivory is the White Melanie (SP ?) Buck made for a few months in the 60's. One thing for SURE is 'papered' Old Custom Shop Ivory Bucks are never never going to be cheap or any kind of bargain. At least with a informed seller. That's a real problem with the old unnumbered knives or ones separated from the paperwork or COA. You can have a old knife rehandled very easily by any number of folks including the famous guys who worked at Buck in the day. And if you supply the Ivory it can be done inexpensively or reasonably. But if you are lucky enough to find a numbered Ivory Old Custom Shop with papers/COA expect the cost to be double, triple or even more than what it would cost to have one made.
Just like a low milage original Hemi Cuda convertible sells for over 2 million but a otherwise identical restomod goes for a fifth of that price. There's just not many that were ever made and fewer survive. I have the last Old Custom Shop 112 shipped (0136) in Mastodon with a mirror polished Custom blade and I KNOW I was lucky to get a chance to buy it.. Can't find that on Ebay...