What is the ideal location of an oven thermocouple probe?

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I'm using a self-built oven with a double row of elements on the sides and rear. My controller and probe are from Auber Instruments. Pic of my oven here https://www.flickr.com/photos/110785734@N05/11245533356/in/set-72157638428185776 Where is the probe located on an Evenheat?

I'm getting a pretty wild range of readings at various locations in my oven. For example:

Rear (above coils) 1500°F
Front (poking thru door) 1475°F
Top (poking thru roof) 1300°F

I've confirmed all these readings with a stand-alone digital thermometer. The discrepancy between the front and rear is understandable, but what about the reading at the top? Perhaps this is an issue of the cooler exterior firebrick "sucking" heat out of the probe? Is there a special way that I'm supposed to install the probe aside from drilling a hole through the firebrick? Thanks!
 
After all the reading I did before I built my oven, led me to believe that the rear corner 1/4 from the bottom and side is ideal
 
hahhahhahahha.............

I could come up with sooooooooooo many jokes/cracks to answer that.

It's just too early in the day tho
 
My KO Evenheat TC located at top/roof center. I tested this oven with a standalone TC (Auber) where the probe was beneath a stainless steel foil (tool wrap) hangar; I stick the probe through a temporary 2" kaowool oven door. Readouts were 5F degrees variation between the 2 TCs. However during maximum ramp rate (9999), the oven TC usually read about 25-40F higher than TC beneath the ss_foil hangar.

As long as the probe tip is not being heat-sink, the reading should reflect whatever the tip temperature. IIRC, temperature gradient between each half (around the 180 turn) of TC wire generates an electrical potential, thus a micro current flow. The device maps the micro voltage into a temperature range appropriate for the type of TC type.
 
temperature gradient between each half (around the 180 turn) of TC wire generates an electrical potential, thus a micro current flow. The device maps the micro voltage into a temperature range appropriate for the type of TC type.

I don't suppose I could get you to dumb this down a bit, I'm not sure what you are talking about ;0)

And is there any way I could get you to take a picture of your TC placement, sounds like I may have a problem with my placement If Evenheat places the TC on the roof of the oven I probably should too.
 
I just looked in my evenheat, and the TC is dead center in the top. It hangs down a bit over an inch.
 
Probe tip is at the center of the oven ceiling. What I meant was, different alloy response differently to temperature, so there will be a voltage potential at the interface of the 2 alloy, hence micro current flow. You can ice-cool the wire outside of the oven, that won't change the temperature reading. Please, someone should correct me if I am misinformed.
IMG_1163.jpg
I don't suppose I could get you to dumb this down a bit, I'm not sure what you are talking about ;0)

And is there any way I could get you to take a picture of your TC placement, sounds like I may have a problem with my placement If Evenheat places the TC on the roof of the oven I probably should too.
 
That looks like a ceramic TC shield, I seen those when I was gathering information, but I didn't look into them any further

Good part changing my stuff around should be easy

Thanks Bluntcut
 
What you are seeing is the ceramic separator for the TC, which it comes with. The end is exposed. This whole assembly fits in the ceramic sheath when using it in a forge.
 
I presume the thermocouple mounted through the door is the control thermocouple. It looks like a Mineral Insulated assembly. What are the details? Thermocouple type (K?), diameter (1/8"?) and junction type (insulated/ungrounded?).

I am guessing you let the temperature stabilize at setpoint on the controller before taking each reading with a separate thermocouple and readout?

The Evenheat setup gives an exposed junction. It's probably the best way to avoid excessive lag in the thermocouple.

I did some testing on the first HT oven I built and found that there can be big differences between what the controller is telling you and the actual temperature of the blade, particularly where it is thin. My first build used a 6mm (1/4") diameter MI thermocouple with an insulated junction. Later versions used a grounded junction for faster response to reduce the overshoot resulting from direct radiative heating. Most of my data got lost in a hard-drive failure, but I'd saved a couple of screenshots. They show heating to an arbitrary tempering temperature of 250 degC / 482 degF.





Top graph shows how the control thermocouple (blue trace) sees a nice-looking approach to setpoint with no overshoot. The other thermocouples were progressively thinner and I was trying to simulate what various parts of the blade would see; the thinnest being intended to simulate the edge. On fast heating, there was massive overshoot.

Bottom graph is to similar temperature, but heating on a slow ramp; much less overshoot.

It is notable that the 1.5mm thermocouple heated faster and overshot more than the 0.5mm. The 0.5mm was new and shiny, but the 1.5mm had been used at high temperature and had a black coating of Oxide, which I think explains this result. I think both had grounded junctions.
 
Patrick,

How long did you allow the oven to thermally stabilize? It can take a while for the walls of the oven to come up to temp. Until they do, you will have uneven heat distribution.

if you want, we can monitor with 8 channels of thermocouples at various locations and observe the heat distribution within your oven. Just give me a call. -Doug
 
In theory, the best place would be directly in contact with the knife blade....in practicality the TC tip should be somewhere near the center of the oven. For most purposes, it is usually in the center top ( as in bluntcut's photo). It only needs to stick out about 1" to get a good reading. The tip is all that reads on a TC, the rest of the TC is just connector wires ( which can be cut to length as needed). A standard 8 to 10 gauge (1/8") type K TC is what yo ant for a HT oven. Using TC wire and a TC connector block will assure more accurate reading. TC wire is made to match the resistance of the +/- TC leads. If using a plug and jack for the PID connection, use TC connectors matching the TC type.

These are the items needed;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Type-K-Ther...280?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c320aa750
 
The thermocouple you linked to does not have an exposed junction. The probability is very high that it has an insulated/ungrounded junction, as grounded junctions seem to be much less common. If you have a multimeter, you can check whether or not there is continuity between the sheath and the wires to the junction. No continuity means insulated/ungrounded.

The elements were being switched by the controller in response to the control thermocouple junction temperature, which was insulated from the thermocouple sheath by around 1/16" of MgO powder and therefore the junction temperature lagged behind the sheath temperature.

What the logger traces seemed to show (and I completely failed to explain),was that the thinner thermocouples followed their sheath/surface temperatures much more closely, having either much less insulation or none at all.

The control thermocouple was at the top, in the middle of the oven. A blade would have been in the middle of the oven with its edge either up or down and the whole area of the blade exposed to the radiated heat of the elements.

Rather like the hood of a car on a sunny day, the large area of steel (probably black from the quench) will reach a temperature significantly higher than its surroundings as a result of the radiated heat. The different thermocouple diameters were my attempt to simulate a number of different thicknesses at different points on the bevel.

Once the control thermocouple junction temperature approached the setpoint, the PID terms kicked in and started backing off the heating. The thin thermocouples (or the blade they were intended to simulate) then started to cool as the amount of "off" time in the 2-second output cycle increased, until everything in the oven was at about the same temperature.

The 6mm/1/4" thermocouple that I used in my first oven was just one I had to hand before starting the build. The testing showed it to be unsuitable and I subsequently bought something more appropriate for the task.

I actually bought a Mineral Insulated thermocouple with a grounded junction (the junction is welded to the inside of the sheath) and further testing showed the response to be adequate for my purposes (YMMV). Unless you are in a position to do your own testing, I would strongly recommend an exposed junction thermocouple. It wants to be somewhere in direct line of sight to the elements.

The idea is that the control thermocouple is the fastest-responding thing in the oven and will back off the heat input before the blade(s) overheat due to the radiated heat from the elements.

My second trace was effectively an attempt to slow everything down, using a ramp, until the control thermocouple responded just about as fast as everything else in the oven. Once this was the case, the other thermocouples (simulated blade) did not suffer nearly as much overheating.

If you change your thermocouple for one with an exposed (or grounded) junction, run it up to maximum working temperature before you run the Autotune. This puts a nice dark Oxide coating on the thermocouple, making it more responsive to radiated heat than a shiny new one.

Another couple of questions: What is the element power, how long is the output cycle of the controller and what was the controller output when you measured?

The reason for asking is that the radiated heat is only present when the elements are powered. If you have low powered elements, they may be on for a large proportion of the time.

Up to a point, shorter output cycle times are better. During my testing, I found 2 seconds about the best setting. It gave measurably better stability than 5 seconds. I also tried one second, but could not detect any improvement, so went back to 2 seconds.
 
Thanks again timgunn. Something is glitchy on my end. Just now I had my oven on for about 10 mins with the setting at 1490°F. It should be up to 1200°F by this time, but the gauge reads 317°. I open the door, look inside and see that the coils are glowing. I shut the door, look at the gauge - 1274°F. Very strange.
 
Sounds odd. I'd check out the wiring very carefully before doing anything else. The negative reading suggests the thermocouple is connected with reversed polarity, though the 317 deg reading makes little sense from here.

It's also worth checking that the correct thermocouple type is selected in the controller. If you have the wrong type selected, the readings will be completely wrong.

Thermocouple wiring is finicky. It needs to be perfect to work properly.

Basically, a thermocouple consists of 2 wires of different composition. The junction develops a voltage that varies with temperature. To make a circuit, there need to be 2 junctions. One is the measuring junction and the other is the "cold" junction, which is usually in the measuring instrument.

The instrument measures the voltage difference between that produced at the measuring junction and that at the cold junction. It looks up the temperature difference that corresponds to the voltage, adds that temperature to the cold junction temperature (which it measures using an internal precision temperature sensor) and displays the result.

If there are other junctions introduced into the circuit, these will develop their own voltages which will add to, or subtract from, the circuit voltage to produce erroneous readings.

The wire used to connect the thermocouple is either Extension cable (which has the same composition as the thermocouple wire) or compensating cable. Compensating cable has a composition that is different from the thermocouple, but has been formulated to have similar characteristics to it over the range of temperatures likely to be encountered by normal wiring. Using "normal" copper wire will cause errors.

If you use the correct cable, but connect it the wrong way round, you create 2 new junctions of opposite polarity to the measuring junction. This will give an error of twice the difference between the instrument temperature and the temperature at the "extra" junctions.

Any pair of dissimilar metals can behave like a thermocouple. Cleverer people than me have studied them and selected a number of particularly useful combinations that work well over different temperature ranges. They have standardized their formulations, tabulated their characteristic temperatures and voltages, and assigned the different letter designations to them.

800 degC (about 1473 degF) corresponds to;

45.494 mV on a type J
33.275 mV on a type K
7.345 mV on a type S
3.154 mV on a type B
61.017 mV on a type E
28.455 mV on a type N

If you have the wrong one selected, the error can be large. I've wasted a lot of time in my day job tracking down wiring problems and incorrect thermocouple types over the years; it happens.
 
Thanks again. Sorry about my poor hyphen location; to clarify, the reading I got after I shut the door was (positive) 1274°F. In other words, everything made sense except the 317°F readout.
 
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