What is the next best thing?

R

R.C.Reichert

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Jul 26, 2008
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Say if I wanted to quench 1095, but either did not have access to the "proper" quenching oils or could not obtain them in an affordable manner. Would vet grade mineral oil be considered the next best thing to use? Better yet, imagine that there was no such thing as formulated specialty quenching oils and the only steel available was 1095. I just know there is undoubtedly many beginners out there that would like simply to know.....what is the next best thing? I hope this question is specific enough. I don't want a big debate saying it is imperative to use Parks #50 or whatever. That's not the point. If that be true, would you quit making knives just because you didn't have the right oil? If I can make knives that hold up as good as the old frontiersmen used to fend off grizzlies and survive in the wild, I'll be happy. Considering I'm a beginner that's an accomplishment. They don't all have to cut cars in half or slice a hundred foot rope into a thousand pieces while remaining sharp to be considered a good knife do they? Thanks for your input. Randy.

If something better comes along I'll get it, but for now.......
 
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I would keep the geometry simple before HT, round the corners, keep it thick (lets sat 60% finished blade) then try to quench in brine and immediate tempering. After HT you can work on the blade slowly and fresh files or belts....
 
The only way to know if mineral oil will work for you is to try it and test the results. The next BEST thing to the proper quenchant for 1095 ( Parks #50 or similar fast oil)would be water or brine. As you already know, these have their risks of blade cracking. Galaddun's advise would be well taken if you go this route. In either case (oil or water), you will get a trade off in the results. Too brittle with cracks/micro-cracks in the water/brine to mixed martensite/pearlite in the slower oil. I would try the oil at 50-55C first.

I like to compare things to an extreme case.
Say you are on an Army base in the desert. There are no women around. You've been there a long time.
Would you still ask, "What is the next best thing, to a woman?" , or would you try harder to find a way to get into the nearest town and find a woman?
 
uhm... no habla...

I'd work it with brine, and I'd do an interupted quench. to simulate a proper quench oil
First the Brine, use a 10% solution (10 parts water to 1 part salt, or in a 5 gallon bucket, half a gallon of salt to balance of water.) now take the blade to critical. let it go a shade passed, and quench count 1 - 1000, 2-1000, 3-1000 pull it out for a count a of 2, back in for a count of 3 untill it's warm enough to handle then temper immediatly at 400º.

that's how i'd do it!

___________________
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
 
Get the right quench, or use another steel. 1095 is a very complicated, simple steel. Anyone who thinks they are getting good results with cooking oils and such, are fooling themselves.
 
I have spend a fair amount on Parks 50 because I know it works. I have no hardness tester and want to know I did the very best I can do with what I have. That said.

I think you could learn to do it with brine and not crack the blades. But, I would love to really know what happens when you use ATF on smaller thin blades. It is made to take heat. You have a small amount of metal to cool. I used to edge quench with it and got a good transition line and the blades worked well. Has anyone had a blade tested or looked at with this quench.

What gets me is I once cut a slice, appox 3/16", of what I was told was W2 from a 1" hexagon bar of steel. I got a cup of water and used a cutting torch to get it a bit beyond red and then dropped it in the cup of water. It hissed and bubbled and was laying on the bottom of the cup. What amazed me is how long it seamed to take for the center of the disk to turn from red. Not saying water is slow and relize brine would work better and agitation helps. Just saying being able to watch it cool side ways in a real clean medium was a wake up to how long it really took. BTW it broke with a rap of the hammer and had fine grain. I took the 8' long bar. I love free.
 
For the first few years I made knives, I used 1095 and olive oil with good results. I only changed after I had left my oil outside and if froze and thwed a few times. Didn't work so well after that. Apparently once olive oil freezes and thaws, it doesn't return to the same state like water does, its forever changed and doesen't work the same any more.
It's readily available, cheap, and if you're quenching/ tempering in the basement, garage, or somewhere else that the smell lingers, it smells more like you're baking cookies than it does like you've set your car on fire :D
Grind evenly, leave a little "meat" on the edge to cushion the edge, and temper quickly. I never had a cracked blade until I left the covered pot of oil outside one time and water got into it and settled in the bottom. Didn't realize it was there until that dreaded "TINK" of doom.
Good luck,
Have fun.
Ed
PS: If you want a good source of how to make knives without spending a ton of money on equipment, check out Wayne goddard's book: Wayne Goddard's fifty dollar Knife Shop.
 
Any of the oils listed will probably get you a knife that can take an edge, but if you want to go "proper" and don't want to buy oil, use brine.
 
bladsmth said:
I like to compare things to an extreme case.
Say you are on an Army base in the desert. There are no women around. You've been there a long time.
Would you still ask, "What is the next best thing, to a woman?" , or would you try harder to find a way to get into the nearest town and find a woman?
Click to expand...

LOL :D

"a women",... you mean any woman?

... I've seen some real women that I wouldn't want to quench anything in... no two are the same. I tend to be a little more picky.

I would say that if the blade is long and thin with a thin edge, use a bit slower quenching medium. It's going to cool at a faster rate anyway, because of the geometry. If it's a short thick stubby blade with a thick edge, use a faster quenching medium... If it's an average blade, (whatever that means ?), Parks #50 should be fine...... up to a point. :)

At any rate,... test it after heat treat.
 
happycat said:
For the first few years I made knives, I used 1095 and olive oil with good results. I only changed after I had left my oil outside and if froze and thwed a few times. Didn't work so well after that. Apparently once olive oil freezes and thaws, it doesn't return to the same state like water does, its forever changed and doesen't work the same any more.
It's readily available, cheap, and if you're quenching/ tempering in the basement, garage, or somewhere else that the smell lingers, it smells more like you're baking cookies than it does like you've set your car on fire :D
Grind evenly, leave a little "meat" on the edge to cushion the edge, and temper quickly. I never had a cracked blade until I left the covered pot of oil outside one time and water got into it and settled in the bottom. Didn't realize it was there until that dreaded "TINK" of doom.
Good luck,
Have fun.
Ed
PS: If you want a good source of how to make knives without spending a ton of money on equipment, check out Wayne goddard's book: Wayne Goddard's fifty dollar Knife Shop.
Click to expand...

One problem with any of the vegetable oils, is that they do change with time and with use. If you do use vegetable oil, keep it tightly corked up in an air and water proof container when not in use, and change it out with "fresh oil" every so often. You can save the old used oil for when you want a slower quenching medium. You can use vibration or circulation to speed the quench up if you need to...
 
Any you guys hear of a method where there's a layer of oil which floats on top of the water so that when you quench it's supposed to give a buffer before hitting the water? Apparently some frontier smiths used this technique for quenching. Is this a viable alternative? I don't know if it is supposed to be just plain water or brine, or what the depth of the oil is supposed to be. Sounds interesting though.
 
You want the quench to be fast enough to get good martensite transformation, or as I call it "transmutation". :) However, you don't want it a lot faster than that.

The old fashioned method of judging whether or not the quench was fast enough and whether or not there was good "transmutation", is by observing the black oxide that forms on the surface prior to the quench. I think W.G. mentions it in one of his books. It takes some experience to know what to look for, and there are a lot of variables… but it can be useful or at least another thing to look at.

If the quench is too slow the black oxide clings to the surface of the steel and doesn't pop off at all. If all the black oxide pops off and the blade comes out looking completely whitish, the quench might be too fast. If the blade comes out sort of freckled looking with few black spots, it's usually pretty close to optimum... it seems to have something to do with the dimensional changes from "transmutation" to martensite and the speed of the "transmutation".
 
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R.C.Reichert said:
Any you guys hear of a method where there's a layer of oil which floats on top of the water so that when you quench it's supposed to give a buffer before hitting the water? Apparently some frontier smiths used this technique for quenching. Is this a viable alternative? I don't know if it is supposed to be just plain water or brine, or what the depth of the oil is supposed to be. Sounds interesting though.
Click to expand...

That's very intresting! You would deinantly want to use a old 10-20 gallon fish tank, i'd think, made of plexiglass, so you don't accidently overshoot the oil!
 
Another thing to consider is that generally we are talking about going into the quench with a wedge shaped geometry. So, the optimum heat treat for the edge may be slightly different than the optimum heat treat for the spine. The oil hardening and air hardening steels seem to be more forgiving in this respect. However, I think the area of the edge is the most critical.

You also have to consider that the edge is going to chill more than the spine in the time it takes to get from the forge or furnace into the quench. I've heard than on some of the Japanese style blades the edge is actually turned down in the forge just prior to the quench to get it a bit hotter, to compensate for this... which may be a plus for heat treating the simple steels from a forge or furnace with a heat gradient to work with.

There's probably also something to be said for wet grinding or using lapidary equipment to grind in the bevels after heat treat... or a combination of things.

It's all clear as mud, isn't it?
 
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