what is the point of ti liner/frame locks other than weight?

I have some beta hardened Titanium blades that Rockwell in the mid forties (C scale). This is about as hard as Titanium gets. The included Titanium carbides give the blade tremendous wear resistance approaching that of ceramic blades. These knives don't make good choppers, but the edges of the kitchen models out last their steel counterparts by a factor of about 5 or 10:1 in my experience. I have some Benchmade 940/943 Osborne folders in Carbon fiber, Aluminum, and Titanium. They weigh 71gm, 81gm, and 91gm respectively. The last ones (Ti) have an open back. I really like anodized Titanium handles as they have much more wear resistance than unfinished ones. When I break off a tap in a Titanium handle, I just soak it in battery acid until the tap dissolves. The stuff (Ti) impresses me.
 
gwlee said:
As near "equal" as possible given the knives that are actually for sale in stores today. For example, The Ti Miliary that I own is 1.6 oz heavier than the G10 Military that I own. The Ti Sage-2 that I own is 0.3 oz heavier than the steel/carbon fiber Sage-1 I owned. The locks on these two knives are different, but they are otherwise identical. The Large Sebneza that I owned was the heaviest knife that I have ever owned with a blade and handle of similar size and shape.

To generalize based on only my own experience, FRN knives tend to be the lightest, followed by G10/steel, followed by solid Ti, followed by solid stainless steel. I don't own any knives with solid stainless steel handles, so my Ti knives are the heaviest knives that I own.
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That's an accurate generalization.

Ti knives are usually thick slabs, so yes they will be heavier. Swap out the steel liner on the G10 millie with ti and its lighter. Replace the all ti handle of the ti military with steel, itd be a great paperweight.
 
I love titanium framelocks they are my favorite category of folding knife. Yes they do have a lot of advantages that have already been mentioned such as strength to weight ratio, lock "stickyness", and memory but man do I LOVE the feel of bead blasted titanium in the morning! Theres just something about how it feels...

Anyhoo I took a few of my Ti framelocks apart and noticed that more than just the sebbies lockbar is heat treated. I found that the Spyderco Sage 2, Buck TNT and Strider AR also had discoloration on the lock face from heat treating.
 
gwlee said:
As near "equal" as possible given the knives that are actually for sale in stores today. For example, The Ti Miliary that I own is 1.6 oz heavier than the G10 Military that I own. The Ti Sage-2 that I own is 0.3 oz heavier than the steel/carbon fiber Sage-1 I owned. The locks on these two knives are different, but they are otherwise identical. The Large Sebneza that I owned was the heaviest knife that I have ever owned with a blade and handle of similar size and shape.

To generalize based on only my own experience, FRN knives tend to be the lightest, followed by G10/steel, followed by solid Ti, followed by solid stainless steel. I don't own any knives with solid stainless steel handles, so my Ti knives are the heaviest knives that I own.
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Well, that's not really a straight across comparison. Now the "lighter" Ti Spyderco ATR vs the SS ATR version would be a closer comparison. Taking a knife of "similar" design, but totally different handle makeup isn't a fair comparison (A Ti Military has thick Ti slabs, the G-10 Military has just a little metal in it).

As to advantages to Ti, it's a combination of weight (If you used identically thick scales in steel), low memory (For the lock), no rusting, & high strength to weight (I believe Ti's stronger, in the same thickness, to aluminum).
 
Ti Military does indeed have a bit thicker lock.
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From Bob Terzuola's Tactical Folding Knife

And speaking of wear on the spring, I have found that the constant pounding against the hardened steel blade will, in effect, hammer forge the face of the spring and harden it so that after a breaking in period there will not be any wear to speak of.
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He also mentions the stickiness of ti and ways to lessen it a bit so that the lock does not seize to the tang.
 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the ease of machining, and the costs involved, it's softer and easier to worth with in the shops.
I'm far from an expert, but you also never really see decorated or anodized steel scales. (can you even anodize steel like Ti?)
So... I guess there's 2 additional advantages.
 
unit said:
Realistically, titanium usually competes against steel-lined g-10/micarta/FRN/whatever handle slabs for the job, and in practically every case, titanium results in the heavier handle.

Titanium is a hot material right now. Buy it for the right reasons, but do not confuse it for a "light" handle material because compared most typical handle materials in use today it is not relatively light weight.
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This comparison doesn't make any sense. Comparing it to a steel-lined handle combined with G-10 might as well be comparing it to a lockback or whatever. There are steel framelocks (Kershaw Leeks) out there and there are Ti-lined/G-10 handles (Older Emersons) out there. When looking at actually comparable knives and Ti being the main difference in design, Ti provides the benefit of being lighter. Just saying "realistically" or "practical" doesn't make it so that it's actually comparable. There are tons of different designs out there. There's no good reason to pick out non-comparable knives and then pointing to random benefits to support an argument.
 
unit said:
Realistically, titanium usually competes against steel-lined g-10/micarta/FRN/whatever handle slabs for the job, and in practically every case, titanium results in the heavier handle.
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So true. Take the regular Military vs. the Ti Military. The Ti is certainly heavier, and I personally don't see any benefit to the Ti in this application other than whatever cool factor the Ti may impart.
 
Titanium is used because it is very good spring material, what is a frame lock, essentially it is a spring, in this endeavor steel can't even come close to titanium. This stickiness ya'll keep referring to is called Galling, whereby titanium has a nasty trait of wanting to stick other metals it comes into contact with. Titanium is the ultimate bend don't break material, kinda sounds ideal for a locking mechanism doesn't it.

Also the whole wear resistance thing, I may be wrong on this but hardness and wear resistance aren't quite the same thing and I've got some titanium data from a knife manf website that says in terms of wear resistance certain titanium alloys are better than steel. Remember there are lots of different kinds of titanium, there are alpha titanium alloys, beta titanium alloys and alpha beta titanium alloys all with about 100 or so variants each.

What most companies and makers use is 6Al4V also knows as commercial grade 5, there is grade 5 STA that is real good stuff as well. Rockwell hardness above the mid 40's can be achieved but it typically comes with insane brittleness so that is why it is avoided. However, there have been several small batch runs of titanium alloys in the beta class that have produced workable titanium right at or slightly above 50 RC. This was made in very limited amounts long ago for a military project and last i heard there was one large ingot that was found and sold off, it is rumored that Mission Knives and Tools acquired it and is holding it for a special project.

Titanium is some pretty impressive stuff and there is huge amounts of data online if one cares to do a little goggling.

Hope this helped some.
 
powernoodle said:

So true. Take the regular Military vs. the Ti Military. The Ti is certainly heavier, and I personally don't see any benefit to the Ti in this application other than whatever cool factor the Ti may impart.
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This seems to be an issue regarding whether there is any practical benefit of a framelock over a linerlock rather than the weight benefit of titanium over steel.
 
Kaizen1 said:
This seems to be an issue regarding whether there is any practical benefit of a framelock over a linerlock rather than the weight benefit of titanium over steel.
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Yeah, I see where you are coming from. :thumbup:

But with all of the excitement about the Ti Military, it seems like most commentators are saying "Cool! A Ti Military" rather than "Cool! A framelock Military". In fact, we even refer to it by the Ti name.

More generally, folks just seem to dig Ti and think its cool. We see this as well with Ti flashlights. They are heavier than their aluminum brethren, and seem (to me) to offer no tangible benefit other than supposed coolness, but folks will pay double to get the same light in Ti.
 
powernoodle said:
Yeah, I see where you are coming from. :thumbup:

But with all of the excitement about the Ti Military, it seems like most commentators are saying "Cool! A Ti Military" rather than "Cool! A framelock Military". In fact, we even refer to it by the Ti name.

More generally, folks just seem to dig Ti and think its cool. We see this as well with Ti flashlights. They are heavier than their aluminum brethren, and seem (to me) to offer no tangible benefit other than supposed coolness, but folks will pay double to get the same light in Ti.
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I do think that the market for titanium in a knife is probably influenced popularity over strictly practical use. And it is strange to call the framelock Millie a "Ti" Millie. Maybe it's just faster to type than "all titanium (handled), framelock Millie." I was under the impression that Ti does provide a strength advantage over aluminum, but I've never looked into that seriously. Those Ti lights are cool tough:p But I had to go with the Fenix PD20 for EDC:thumbup:
 
harkamus said:
From a purely "wear" stand point, steel is harder than titanium. So, why do many expensive knives use titanium linerlocks or framelocks when steel wears at a much slower rate?
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Hardness is not a factor, Millions of knives are made with brass liners. (even oldschool liner lock slip joint pocket knives) Titanium doesn't require heat treatment like steel. You heat it to bend it and you are done. anodizing titanium is amazingly simple and non toxic (You use water TSP and dc voltage) Most importantly Titanium just sounds cool, exotic, secret agent.
 
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