What is the proper response to the threat of violence?

A very tricky issue, and one that has made the headlines here in San Francisco of late.

In one of our higher priced locales, two men on foot (with another at the wheel of a nearby car) attempted to mug two other men on the street, apparently close to where one of them lived. They ran. One man made it into his apartment, the other, visiting his friend on vacation, was not so fortunate. He was shot in the head and killed, left dead on the street with his precious wallet still in his pocket. The wheelman drove the other two away, and no information has surfaced to help identify them.

At least one of these men made the wrong decision. Whether it was his decision to run instead of surrendering his money, or his decision on whom to consider a friend, that is not clear to me. Of all the different reactions I might have had in this situation, leaving my friend behind would not be one of them. I would tell the old joke that ends with the line “I don’t have to outrun the bear…”, but in this case it is just not funny.

Placed in their shoes, I most likely would have surrendered my money. No one has ever tried to rob me, the dark looking, six foot, 250 lb, obviously alert individual. If someone tried to, I would assume that they were either desperate enough to be truly dangerous, of fully prepared to back up their threats. The temptation to fight back is strong, as is the flight reflex, but I hope I have enough self control to assess the situation and act accordingly. If I thought that I was in danger even if I surrendered my belonging, then I hope I am prepared to handle the situation with the proper measure of force. In a situation where I am truly threatened, then the only proper amount of force is FULL. No quarter asked, none given.

My real fear is that if someone were to dare threaten the safety of my wife, I would not be able to properly measure the situation and act accordingly. I fear that my instinctual reaction might place us in greater jeopardy, cost us more than mere money. That is something I dare not risk. I pray that we are never placed in such a situation, and that if we ever are, I pray I am able to react accordingly. My wife means everything to me, absolutely everything. This Monday we visited her fathers resting place, and as always, I promised him I would love her and keep her from harm. I pray that in my attempts to do so, I won’t make a mistake that would place her in peril.


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James
 
There is a lot of good thinking and good writing going on here. I'm afraid of being cast in the role of the passive victim here, so I want to restate my position.

I agree completely that every situation is different and one must be continually ready to act in self-defense. I am simply concerned with when the trigger for that response is pulled - to me, acting in self-defense involves the use of lethal force (not meaning that someone necessarily dies but that the possibility is there). It is inappropriate to trigger that response over money, but intensely important to trigger it over an immediate threat to my own life. When the transition from one to the other takes place is something that can only be judged in the moment itself.

I agree very strongly with Pat that working out the "what ifs" in your head and hard-wiring your responses ahead of time is critical to not doing the wrong thing. In this case, I feel that doing the wrong thing would be going ape on some guy who would have happily left with just your wallet. Even worse would be freezing up and failing to resist if the attacker became interested in doing more than just taking your wallet. Either situation must be carefully planned out in your head, so that when you go with your instinct it will be the "right" instinct, the one you prepared.

In short, if they just want your wallet, give them your wallet. This has been told to me many, many times by a good friend who routinely and responsibly carries two guns and at least one knife. If they become violent or appear to be about to be violent, do anything within your power to get away. If this means killing or disabling, so be it, but the primary goal is escaping to see neither a hospital nor a jail cell. Never, ever go anywhere with an assailant - they only want to do something to you that they can't do where you are.

Folks have spoken in this thread about more than just the immediate concern of surviving the situation, but of the danger that the assailant poses to others to others. I flatly think this is inappropriate. Not being a victim means knowing how to avoid situations and survive them should they occur. Sometimes compliance is the best choice for survival - being a victim is relying on compliance, and this is not what I am advocating. Be ready to act to protect your life - but NOT to stop the criminal activities this individual might commit in the future. That is vigilante-ism, and it is illegal, immoral, and downright dangerous. We must live within the legal and moral framework of our society or we are as big a problem as the mugger.

Guess I'm running up quite a tab on opinions here, so I'll close up shop and get ready for some more great reading.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
RH

I vote at every opportunity, and lobby when I can. My FAMILY is barred from jury duty. My wife and my brother were called and because they were related to a cop they had to show up every morning and be excused every day, without exception.

The witty quip was taken from a button worn by an assistant DA. Today I was carved up by a defense atty (roughest sex I have had in a while) and called a liar on the stand, because the atty could not attack the facts of the case (witnesses, victim testimony, photos, audio tape). The atty could not fight the facts so he attacked me. Luckily the jury saw through it and the guy that kicked me in the balls while I was arresting him is now a felon.

This is in a county where a person, infront of 20 witnesses shot 2 police officers and was acqitted. Why? because the officers failed to issue a citation for the one headlight that brought them in contact with the defendant. The gunshot, weapon, injuries and that the suspect did it were never in dispute. Since the citation wasn't written (both officers were in the hospital when the person was booked)he walked because the jury felt there was no documented reason to bring the officer into contact with the suspect.

The conviction today was an anomaly. The general citizenry in this county believe that it is ok to resist or batter an officer because officers make hassels by writing tickets and intervening in disputes ("just part of the job"). In this county is OK to hit a cop, and this is the first time in years that there has been a battery conviction without serious, visible injury.

Sorry, a little venting. Juries are vital to the system, but they are not always the best, brightest, or even peers. I have seen motivated, interested, intelligent people turned away because of their profession, or who they were related to.

sorry, I get kinda cranky and my mind wanders after 19 hours worth of work.

pat
 
I agree that it is not worth a violent encounter over a sum of money. Unfortunately, the mugger has already taken it to that level. Don't act passive and expect the aggressor to simply take the money and run. At the same time, realize that most muggers are probably not intending to physically harm you, and don't force them into it.

For example, if a mugger told me to drop my wallet in the street and walk away, I'll do it. If he tries to establish physical contact, I will do everything I can to prevent it. If he tries to get my wallet, I'll drop it or toss it to him to keep him away from me. If he forces a connection, I'll defend myself to the best of my ability.

Something to think about: I'm a fairly unimposing individual, and most people don't think me capable of a violent response. In most cases, I would preserve that image rather than going for a weapon. The advantage of surprise is worth more than a knife anyway, in most cases. Of course, if somebody rushes up the alley at me with a knife, I'm not gonig in empty-handed.

As with everything else, it depends on the circumstances,

Ted Stewart
 
This is very tough to answer. In our city, in one case, about five guys killed a man and severely beat his son for 5 dollars. Another man was recently acquitted for killing two skinhead scumbags in self-defense, but is now in danger if he returns home, as he has received death threats and vandalism to his property. Surely, he made the right decision, and it is recommended he just leave the city.
In younger years, I was attacked at knife point, and once overseas I was able to thwart 3 or 4 (luckily unarmed) gangster-type goons from kidnapping me. Mostly my awareness has allowed me to escape/avoid other dangerous situations that were developing.
In the case of the kidnapping attempt, I simply used constant footwork/evasion, getting them in each others' way and never caught flat-footed grappling with one for long. There were also more thugs waiting in the big black car, I'm sure they had weapons, but we were on a public street at about 5:30 in the afternoon. Had I run I'm sure they would have caught me. Had I tried to play 'hero' they would've caught me (they were solidly built men and at the time I was a 140-pound kid). If I'd had a weapon and pulled it...I hate to think about it.
Whatever, my plan of action worked, and after about a minute (it seemed an eternity) most of them gave up and yelled at the last to "go", and they sped off in the car.
There was no time to plan, but instinctually I felt IN THAT SITUATION to only evade/scuffle, any more would escalate it.
However, situations differ. In other situations I hauled A$$ and escaped; in a couple I effectively used hard violence. Happily I've not been mugged yet (knock on wood) or shot at.
The first rule is BE AWARE. Most people seem to be asleep. Someone who is aware is less ideal as a target, but if chosen, you at least are more alert that something's going down. I once had my guard down (off-guard) and got clocked. Never again!
Jim
 
"What is the proper response to the threat of violence?"

A simple question deserves an equally simple answer.

Neutralize the threat.
 
Every situation, attacker, and victim will be different. There are always variables to be taken into account. One I'd like to bring up is "nobody really knows how they will react in a given situation until they are in it." I suggest that finding out the hard way is not the sanest course of action. I know it will ruffle some feathers, but simply having the latest "ultra-cool" tactical folder does not a seasoned fighter make. The same goes with firearms. There is a certain amount of prerequisit training in their use that is necessary to ensure success in a violent encounter. Slicing through thin air at home- or shooting targets from a "cold" range- is not training. Now before you say it, I know that some of you ralize this already and take training seriously. The rest of you, however, should seriously think before you jump into a fight you don not really want or need to be in- because that is definitely not the time to find out that the bad guy is faster, stronger, more determined, and ,oops, knows what he is doing.

With all of that said- if there is no other course and the fight is on, good luck to you!

Erik
 
This is a hot topic! I guess everyone has to make their own decision, and few people are going to have the same. Personally, I don't have one set plan other than to get out alive. You really can't have an all encompassing plan. For instance, if a skinny little 14 year old punk with a knife wants all of his gang-banger freinds to think he's big and bad by mugging me, I'll probabably let him live, but I will try to teach him a lesson. However, if a 250 lb muscleman who acts like he's high shows a gun or knife and tells me to give him my money, I'll either run or try to kill him. A little guy who's high won't feel pain that would make your average man pass out. A man with enough crack in him might go from calmness to insanity in the blink of an eye. As far as my opinion the morality of self defeense, I carry a Spyderco Delica when I run. I'm just a little guy, but I will NOT be an easy victim. As long as you make it out alive from a violent encounter you didn't initiate, whatever happens to the BG is his problem in my book. Also, many of you have mentioned the idea that an easy victim encourages a violent criminal to attack others by being compliant. You guys have a good point. Think about it, no one goes from Joe average citizen to cold blooded killer in a day unless they have some sort of chemical imnbalance. A person's capacity for violent behavior increases slowly. Criminals are off on a power trip by making you obey them, and the more people they believe won't stand up to them, the bolder they become.
 
As to the "no one goes from Joe average citizen to cold blooded killer in a day unless theyt have some sort of chemical imbalance"... Oh, were that still true... I'm a LEO and believe you me; it happens; all the time, in every community, in every socio-economic bracket, to the "nicest" of people.

Erik
 
If the attacker is armed then violence is unavoidable! It is better to be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6! Take him out hard and quick!
Be sharp,
Dark Ninja
 
Markku,

Thank you for that pointer. There are a great many interesting experiences related in that thread, including a thought provoking contribution from Bill Martino.

Here are a couple of experiences that might qualify as de-escalation. No one got hurt, and no one lost face. It will take me many more years to reach the subtlety of action Mr. Martino displayed in one of the accounts you referenced.

Once when walking down a sidewalk in the University District of Seattle, I approached three young men standing in an entrance. Sad to say, I was in "condition white." When I was a couple of feet away one of the young men pushed another one across my path, and I found myself walking into the jaws of a pincer. The man who had been pushed was crouched and coiled to spring in the direction from which he had just come. There was an immediate adrenaline dump into my system and time slowed down. I turned 90 degrees and took a route around the back of the crouched man, through the street. The three potential assailants were in a line, and the one closest to me was in a very poor position to attack. I on the other hand was in an excellent position to engage the crouched man. I continued around and back onto the sidewalk without incident. As I continued on my way a stream of "jive talk" was directed at me, but the three men kept their position and did not follow. I did not feel put out or offended, but more like I had just run some dangerous rapids. Although I had a firearm at my disposal, its presence was not necessary.

On another occasion I was working on a ship in the Bearing Sea. A shipmate who happened to be an ex-con and I were alone in the galley. He slid in next to me on the seat where I was sitting and began an "interview." I reached up with my left hand and held his trachea. Then, looking deeply into his eyes, I explained that I did not want to fight with him. He indicated that he did not want to fight either, so we didn't. We later became friends.
 
Has anyone ever heard the Charlie Daniels song "Simple Man"? If so please post.

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Just because I talk to myself doesn't mean I'm crazy. What's wrong with getting a second opinion?
 
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