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Well the company website lists it as 223 Remington...which I've always been told is not safe for 223 Nato due to pressure differences.
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What is wrong with pump action rifles?
- Thread starter zenheretic
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Well the company website lists it as 223 Remington...which I've always been told is not safe for 223 Nato due to pressure differences.
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I am not knocking PA rifles - merely attempting to explain why they're not as popular. Pump rifles are good offhand and like most lever actions are generally considered best for close range use - they can be used effectively at longer ranges but other designs are better. They are not suited for prone or bench use and I have yet to see a bipod on one. Also (myself included) some people don't like a 'rattly' forend on a gun.
Because many people are limited to the number of guns they can afford, guns are often chosen to cover as many different situations as possible and the perception is that bolt actions and semi-auto's are better all-rounders
Because many people are limited to the number of guns they can afford, guns are often chosen to cover as many different situations as possible and the perception is that bolt actions and semi-auto's are better all-rounders
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Well the company website lists it as 223 Remington...which I've always been told is not safe for 223 Nato due to pressure differences.
5.56 nato is a higher pressure round than .223 remington.
they are the same size, and any rifle would chamber either. one may never have problems from the higher pressure, but then again.....
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www.winchester.com , in the LE section has a discussion of the 223/5.56 and 7.62/308 differences. The biggest problem is the very longest NATO bullet in a rifle with a shorter throat of the 223.Some like the Mini-14 will take both .
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The mini-14 doesn't work very well as a pump. 
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The classic Winchester and Remington .22 pumps would make anyone love pump rifles.
I believe Rossi copies some of the old designs...fit and finish isn't near as good but should still be a joy to shoot.
Rossi no longer makes them, I believe Taurus and maybe Henry do. Anyway I bought a stainless Rossi version for $75. I haven't shot it yet, but it seems like a nice little rifle.
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Wow I just looked on their site...seems they really cut back on .22 from when I was a kid. They were recently bought out by Taurus.
Looks like Taurus has some pistol caliber pumps. Would be a decent combo with a revolver for a KISS armory.
http://www.taurususa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=TH3
There are more differences in a true .223 Rem vs. a true 5.56 NATO round then pressure. Modern rifles have chambers cut to safely fire both in most cases (certain countries forbid rifles in a military caliber so, they make true .222 or .223 Remington caliber models) for those markets.
Pumps in general seem to work best in "snap" shots. They can be used for long range and prone shots but, they aren't the best option. How many centerfire rifle caliber options do you find in the marketplace today? 22lr gallery guns are really a different category and don't rely on any recoil to facilitate cycling the action.
Lever actions are the ones I have a hard time understanding since most are really built to be carried in a scabbard on a horse and not slung on your shoulder. There are a few modern versions which are very nice but, most models sold today are based on the classic Winchester 94 or Marlin 336. 20 years ago you could buy one in 30-30 pretty cheap compared to bolt actions but, these days a good bolt action costs less and works better for most applications.
Bullet selection is also a problem for any tube loaded rifle. High drag round nose bullets don't work as well as modern ones when the ranges extend. Yes, you can shoot a 30-30 or 45-70 at the 600 yard line at a DCM meet but, a higher velocity ballistically efficient bullet will work much better. I think that's one reason Browing made the BLR rifle which was magazine loaded, not tube fed.
If you factor malfunction clearance drills into the mix, tube fed rifles are a real pain. Pumps and lever actions are harder to clear then a bolt action. Most people aren't in a police force or military unit but, they want the perception of easier malfunction clearances in a SHTF scenario (which is false security if you don't practice malfunction drills).
Pumps in general seem to work best in "snap" shots. They can be used for long range and prone shots but, they aren't the best option. How many centerfire rifle caliber options do you find in the marketplace today? 22lr gallery guns are really a different category and don't rely on any recoil to facilitate cycling the action.
Lever actions are the ones I have a hard time understanding since most are really built to be carried in a scabbard on a horse and not slung on your shoulder. There are a few modern versions which are very nice but, most models sold today are based on the classic Winchester 94 or Marlin 336. 20 years ago you could buy one in 30-30 pretty cheap compared to bolt actions but, these days a good bolt action costs less and works better for most applications.
Bullet selection is also a problem for any tube loaded rifle. High drag round nose bullets don't work as well as modern ones when the ranges extend. Yes, you can shoot a 30-30 or 45-70 at the 600 yard line at a DCM meet but, a higher velocity ballistically efficient bullet will work much better. I think that's one reason Browing made the BLR rifle which was magazine loaded, not tube fed.
If you factor malfunction clearance drills into the mix, tube fed rifles are a real pain. Pumps and lever actions are harder to clear then a bolt action. Most people aren't in a police force or military unit but, they want the perception of easier malfunction clearances in a SHTF scenario (which is false security if you don't practice malfunction drills).
Absintheur
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Actually this is not the problem it once was with the introduction of new ballisticly superior bullets. The Hornady LeveRevolution ammo is much better than the old choices as for as ballistic co-efficients are concerned. It has easily added 30% to the effective range of the lever or the pump tube fed gun.
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Taking a guess here at Sid's comment, but there are old rumors that you shouldn't use anything but a soft round nose in a tube feed. Something about the tip of one setting off the cap in the cartridge in front of it. Personally, I've never had any problems like this, and my old Marlin 336 easily eats up the newer rounds. Climbing mountains during deer season, the shorter carbines are a treat!
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Thanks for the well written post Sid.
However I wasn't really focusing on the bolt-action. I can easily see that the world-wide military research in the last hundred years pushed the bolt-action ahead of both the pump and the lever. I just wasn't to clear in my op. When someone decides to not get a bolt action, they go for a lever action. Other than caliber options currently available, I couldn't see a reason why as I view the lever action as inferior to the pump. So really this is a pump action vs. lever action thread. I could have cleared any confusion by giving the thread that title, but one of my pet peaves is any thread titled this vs. that.
It currently appears that with a little attention to modern design, the pump could easily replace the lever action for second place behind bolt action...really first place for some uses...like a "brush gun" or a "guide gun" vs. the 45-70 Alaska, I'd rather have a pump that did the same thing.
However I wasn't really focusing on the bolt-action. I can easily see that the world-wide military research in the last hundred years pushed the bolt-action ahead of both the pump and the lever. I just wasn't to clear in my op. When someone decides to not get a bolt action, they go for a lever action. Other than caliber options currently available, I couldn't see a reason why as I view the lever action as inferior to the pump. So really this is a pump action vs. lever action thread. I could have cleared any confusion by giving the thread that title, but one of my pet peaves is any thread titled this vs. that.
It currently appears that with a little attention to modern design, the pump could easily replace the lever action for second place behind bolt action...really first place for some uses...like a "brush gun" or a "guide gun" vs. the 45-70 Alaska, I'd rather have a pump that did the same thing.
Cougar Allen
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I would also argue the pump has advantages over the semi-automatic.
The bolt-action has clear advantages over other actions, as well as the clear disadvantage of being a little slower. I wouldn't argue pump versus bolt; if you want a bolt action you probably know why -- likewise if you don't want a bolt action.
The bolt-action has clear advantages over other actions, as well as the clear disadvantage of being a little slower. I wouldn't argue pump versus bolt; if you want a bolt action you probably know why -- likewise if you don't want a bolt action.
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Heck even the advantage of accuracy is being diminished in the bolt vs. semi...
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I've got an old Winchester 63 I think it is. I also have the 61. One is semi and the other is pump. The pump was my fathers when he was a kid and it was given to me when I was 10. It has been very accurate and I put thousands through it. Still my favorite little gun. Because of this I have always favored a pump gun but don't have any others with exception of a couple mod 12 shotguns.
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The Remington 14 and 141 was available for the Remington series of cartridges of the 35 Rem group. They look like toys as they are very small. The mag tube looks strange because it's designed so that a bullet tip doesn't contact the primer of the next cartridge .You could use pointed bullets then !! The 35 Rem cartridge is excellent , better than the 30-30 for sure !
Cost of manufacture versus sales volume will always be a factor in main stream affordable rifles. It doesn't matter if it's an EVIL Black Rifle, lever action, or pump. There are also extremes that make one action superior to others for specific reasons of the cartridge.
When most people talk about gallery guns, old Marlin 336's or, Winchester Model 94's it generally has more to do with nostalgia and childhood memories then true technical merit or superiority.
In a non-military application, the speed of the reload rarely is the deciding factor in success or failure. If you are doing rapid fire drills on a deer hunt, you have basic problems beyond the speed of working the action.
Pump action rifles are nice but, how well do they work in freezing sleet and blowing sand? I think the larger diameter of the parts in a pump shotgun diminish this effect. A lever action has most of the working parts covered by the action and you have the leverage afforded by that long lever! A frozen bolt has pretty good leverage but, you can also beat it against a firm surface to force it open. What happens when a pump action gets frozen by sleet in a deer stand? The same basically holds true for grit in the action whether its sand or other debris.
When most people talk about gallery guns, old Marlin 336's or, Winchester Model 94's it generally has more to do with nostalgia and childhood memories then true technical merit or superiority.
In a non-military application, the speed of the reload rarely is the deciding factor in success or failure. If you are doing rapid fire drills on a deer hunt, you have basic problems beyond the speed of working the action.
Pump action rifles are nice but, how well do they work in freezing sleet and blowing sand? I think the larger diameter of the parts in a pump shotgun diminish this effect. A lever action has most of the working parts covered by the action and you have the leverage afforded by that long lever! A frozen bolt has pretty good leverage but, you can also beat it against a firm surface to force it open. What happens when a pump action gets frozen by sleet in a deer stand? The same basically holds true for grit in the action whether its sand or other debris.
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The Remington 7165 was purchased by my town recently for secondary use in our police cruisers as a patrol rifle. I handled one when I visited with the mayor at city hall, and it's not a bad rifle.
My first-ever firearm was a twenty-gauge Browning BPS Upland Special, so I have a particular affinity for pump-actions. You can hardly beat them, especially where shotguns are concerned, in my book.
My first-ever firearm was a twenty-gauge Browning BPS Upland Special, so I have a particular affinity for pump-actions. You can hardly beat them, especially where shotguns are concerned, in my book.