What kind of steel for ...

J

Joe Talmadge

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
4,842

Got this request in email, Louis gave me permission to post it and reply here instead:

Hello.. Could you please rate, in your opinion, the different steels
(high carbon and stainless) in order of 1) the edge holding, 2) the
resistance to tarnish and rust, and 3) the toughness if they all had
very good heat treating? I have read several of your posts on
"knifeforums.com" and respect your advice. A couple of our local
knifemakers all have different opinions on which steel is best. I want
to purchase a custom knife, but because of the price, I might be
able to purchase only one. Therefore, I have to get it right the
first time. My main concern is edgeholding, but I do not want a
knife that "rusts-while-I-look-at-it". Maintainance at the end of
any day that I use it is not a problem. After 30+ years of hunting
and using several good factory knives, I think I am finally ready to
step up to a good knife and take care of it. It's main use would be
to gut and skin whitetail deer with an occasional string cutting or
small branch trimming. I do not pry or do heavy chopping with a
knife- I own several axes and saws for that. Please reply, if you
can, and accept my thanks, in advance, for any advice offered.
 
Thanks for including some details. Too many times, someone posts their
query as: "I need a knife, I'm thinking about either an 18" machete, a
Spyderco Civilian, or a micra. Which should I get?"

Okay, your criteria is mostly that you want it to hold an edge, to be
rust-free with periodic but not constant maintenance, and probably
tough enough to hold up to the occasional "I hit a bone by accident"
mishaps.

For rust, that's always a hard one for me. Some guys think ATS-34
rusts too quickly. On the other hand, I have a friend whose O-1 knife
gets barely any maintenance and still doesn't have a spot of rust. Go
figure.

Non-stainless steels:

There's lot of good non-stainless steels that hold an edge. 52100
would be my first choice, not only because of its great edge holding,
but because many makers choose this steel for exactly the application
you want. However, I don't know about you, but I find my camp knives
to get extra-rough treatment, especially from non-knife people. I
clean the knife, then lend it out, then find it the next day
uncleaned, soaking in the juice from the lemon they cut with it. For
that reason, if this were my main camp knife, I'd want something a bit
more rust resistant.

D-2, nice and hard, may be a top choice here. It's "semi-stainless",
not stainless but needs much less maintainance than the likes of
52100. Excellent edge holding. Simply a great choice for a field
knife.


Stainless:

Something like BG-42 might fit the bill nicely, if you want even more
stainlessness.


Materials I haven't used extensively yet, but sound VERY promising:

CPM 420V: This sounds like it might be king of the edge holders,
plenty tough for your uses, and very stain resistant.

Talonite: A cobalt-based material, holds an edge forever (supposedly)
and is not only stain resistant but very close to stain-proof!


Joe
 
I've got the same question, but with a different metric as most important. What if my main concern is sharpness? I'm skinning an elk, so you might think I want that tough edge, but I'm willing to stop and steel or hone during the job. This is mostly just a fun question, but what would give the sharpest cut on meat and hide?

------------------
"Defense against knife attack:
Option 1. If you have a gun shoot him."
 
very prejudiced in this post: and i believe for a reason....i had on friend clean 36 animals with a 440v knife i made...another, steve gelakowski (sp?) legendary bow hunter from lanai...just sent his 440v knife over for sharpening....48 animals...this is a guy who goes hunting 3 or 4 times a week....is a guide...and runs pheasant hunts on the side. of course this is my opinion...and like i always say....no steel is any better than its heat treat...paul bos does mine...i am very satisfied....just made my first one out of 420v and have 12 420v folders blanked out. check out phil wilsons articles in knives illustrated on these steel....just about rustproof.....i used stellite quite a bit about 12 years ago....was not as great a knife blade as i had hoped....mike franklin used to make almost all his knives out of it but no longer does...dont know why....jim jacks...in l.a., one of his knives is on the knifemakers guild flyer this year...makes knives exclusively out of 6k...and of course rob s. is the big talonite fan...am waiting for him to send me a piece....but the one thing that i would like to bring up...is that research is making better and better stuff all the time....we are not stuck with the old standbys any more.....ats has fallen to the side...and in my opinion d2..as good as it is...is far outshone by the new particle metalugy from Crucible.... www.mayoknives.com P.S. would also like to add something that is rarely pointed out...that these steels from crucible...not only are EXTREMELY wear resistant...but the edge they take is phenomenal....sharp is a clear understatement....thats from a 17 year knifemaker and 52 year knife affectionado..

[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 03 June 1999).]
 
There is a steel made by David Boye, it is Dendritic steel. I know some of you guys know about it, but some may not. I have made several hunting knives out of this steel, one fellow takes people on guided elk hunts in New Mexico and he told me he can't find a knife that will stay sharp. I made him a 3in bladed hunter, and he said it stays sharper than anything he has used. It will go through an elk and it is still hair poppen sharp. It has 17% chromium, so it is real good at resisting rust. Dendritic steel is a cast 440c. When I make leather sheaths, I use my David Boye lockback to cut the leather, and the knife stays sharp and keeps cutting. If you are not familiar with Dendritic steel give David Boye a call and he will send you information about the steel. David Boye's phone number is 1-800-853-1617. I have made some of my hunting buddys Dendritic steel knives, and they tell me how it will just stay sharp after cleaning deer. Anyway I really do like the stuff.
Chris, Top of Texas Knives
www.toptexknives.com

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Tom, those are some impressive numbers. What RC to you have the 440V heat-treated to? When the knives are returned to you for sharpening, what do the edges look like? Are they just worn away, or rolled/impacted? Do these guys do any steeling / honing on the knives at all during all that blade work? How thin do you grind the bevel down to before you put on the edge, and what do you use to put the final polish on?

-Cliff
 
And if you want to really push the envelope, Boye also makes blades(although I'm not sure about bar stock) out of cast Cobalt alloy(BDC). It is supposed to hold an edge about 50% better than BDS, and is stainless. As a Co alloy, it is softer than most steels, but that makes it easier to sharpen in the field.(I know it sounds like a contradiction to say it is softer, but holds an edge longer, but that's what they say)
Aaron


------------------
aaronm@cs.brandeis.edu
I like my women like I like my knives: strong, sharp, well-formed and pattern-welded!
 
I dont want to be negative about the dendritic 440c....but i made several knives out of it...had them tested...and that was the end of the project....enough said... I send my 440v to paul bos...from what i understand 440v is just like 440c except for the major vanadium addition...as well as the partical metallurgy which makes it work...so he heat treats them just like 440c...to about 56/57...i asked him to lower the rockwell once to make them tougher...440v is definately brittle at the edge...and he told me the corrosion resistance flies out the window at below 56 and not to mess with it.. he knows more than me to say the least... i try to grind them just like standard hunters..hollow ground on a 10 inch wheel down to about .025" before heat treat.. but i take them down to about 400 grit before heat treat so i really dont take very much off after....dont like a really thin edge on a hollow ground blade...makes it thin all the way up to the middle of the knife...then i put i fairly long taper on the edge grind.. proportionate to the thickness...first with a sharp 220grit belt, then i go over it with a used 600 grit belt until all the 220 scratches are gone...hit the wire edge with a hard felt wheel a few times...and them buff with a hard sewn (1/4" spiral stitched) buffing wheel with green chrome rouge on it...i buff it with the green rouge until im happy with the edge... once in a while i go back and hit it with the 600 grit and resharpen and rebuff..but rarely....i am a big believer in the no scratch polished edge for ease of cut...not everyone agrees with me on this...but think about this...what will wear down faster..my edge...or the "working edge" with a million little points on it to break off...they compare it to a saw....i dont agree...anyhow, i must say that both of these men who performed these tests are VERY accomplished hunters with a ton of experience in cleaning animals and they are careful with their knives and really know what they are doing...i think your average guy would probably get in the high teens with a 440v knive....sincerely tom www.mayoknives.com
oops..forgot to answer one of cliffs questions....they are quite dull,not rolled over....it doesnt roll over...takes a killer crisp edge and holds it for a long, long time....to me, its the best knife steel for a hunter/skinner..although i am now experimenting with 420v...i dont know if they steel them or not..i will ask, although one of them went to canada hunting for most of the month...but the other guy i talk to all the time.....will get back on that one....
[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 04 June 1999).]

[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 04 June 1999).]
 
"... 440v is definately brittle at the edge ... hollow ground on a 10 inch wheel ..."

Please excuse me for yelling, but ...
smile.gif


IF THE EDGE IS BRITTLE WHY ARE YOU HOLLOW-GRINDING?????????

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Seems we are mixing apples a taters here,
some of these steels do well as hollow grind
blades and some don't. Flat grind with a convex edge has it's place on some steels but not on others. The maker that knows his steel and how to grind , heat treat & finish it can make an excellent blade. No one steel, from the old standby's to the latest out is the answer to every knife. The maker is the key to an excellent blade.


Old Pete's first rule of knife sales'
If the buyer doesn't like what you like,
like something else!!!

------------------
old pete
 
if the edge is brittle...what does it matter if i hollow grind it or flat grind it... actually....i hollow grind all my knives except the machetes and camp knives i make... i like to do it that way and i feel a hollow gring is the best way to make a knife that is used in the field for hunting, others may disagree...thats ok....one thing that i dont like about flat grinding...especially on a knife thats going to get used a lot and therefore sharpened a lot...is that after about 20 or 30 sharpenings you have a very thick edge to contend with...ive seen this often on a lot of the older randalls that some of my friends had in vietnam....sincerely...
 
Brittle edge may be indication that that steel will not take that high fo a RC on a thin edge so flat grind with convex edge would put a bit more beef to back it up. I went to it on 52100 blades with some improvement in chip resistance. backing the Rc hardness off to 57 also helped especially when the customer hacks into a bone.

------------------
old pete
 
I agree with Tom that a hollow ground edge works better and can be sharpened longer. I frequently hollow grind knives that weren't manufactured that way. Once a knife edge gets too thick you have to start giving it a coarse edge (sometimes even a file edge) to get a good cut. If it's real strong, but it isn't sharp you call it a club not a knife.

Of course the words "brittle at the edge" sets off alarm bells in the mind. I invision a straight razor with a dime-sized chunk broken out of the edge. I don't think Tom would make a knife that would do that. Tom, could you give a description of how you have observed this brittleness? Have you observed chipping? Does it just feel glassy hard when you sharpen it? Have you intentionally broken blades to test their limits? Have you seen problems in customer use?

It seems funny to me that lower Rockwell heat treatment would give corrosion problems. What does Crucible have to say about this?
------------------
"Defense against knife attack:
Option 1. If you have a gun shoot him."


[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 05 June 1999).]
 
first of all i agree wholeheartedly with the above....dont ever take a knife to a gun fight....i read a lot about the 440v before i ever used it and so i was away of its limitations...as i said i my post way up there somewhere...i leave the edge at around .025 before sharpening...that is NOT thin by any means...i sharpen from there.. the brittleness ive run into is very minor chipping right at the edge....one sharpening with a new 400 grit belt makes the chips disappear.....but that is to be expected from something that is so very hard....in my opinion....if some of you dont know i sharpen tools for a living....carbide mostly, but also high speed steel planer knives and router bits....carbide holds a edge 30 to 40 times longer than hss...and chips really easily....so the guys that use it are gentler with it and know its limitations...like ive said before....knife steel choices are a lot like a lot of choices in life....put the pros and cons on the two sides of the scale and decide where you want to live.....its your choice...i LOVE 440V...so do a lot of the people i know who use it.....i really like a lot of other steels to....d2 is great..it rusts pretty readily where i live....in ariz it would be a great choice...i am making a lot of knives out of bg42 now.....jury is still out....but i am assured that it is a VERY good steel.. for a hunting knife...i think 440V is the ultimate...others may disagree....thats ok.. for a little while (very little) longer we still live in a free country....p.s. if you arent in the NRA join today...NO ONE else is standing up for our gun rights....they need our support......
 
This whole thread reminds me of some of things I love in this great country - FREEDOM

With my money and a knife makers skill, I have a choice and a chance to try new things. If I only have enough to buy one knife then, I still have a choice and would restrict it to a known and proven good performer.

My Rinaldi TTKK is made from BG-42, not ATS-34. Perhaps Talonite would have been a better choice in my application but, BG-42 is proving itself to be a winner in my book and I will definitely consider it in the future. CPM 420V/440V is capturing a lot of the spot light because it is a good steel, whether it is better for you depends on what you are doing with it and how you are actually going to use it.

Rereading your post, I think you should strongly consider a proven performer. Dozier has built a good name for himself with D2 and makes a fine working man's hunting knife. The BG-42 knives are working well with many people making fine specimens with it that hold up over time.

The only steel that seems to have a question about it is CPM 420V. Its reputation in folders is very good but, in larger applications like yours there seems to be some uknowns. Some people report very good things but, others are less enthusiastic. If you opt for a CPM 420V/440V be sure to pay close attention to the heat treat since this steel is not as foregiving as others. A little soft and it is reportedly not very good in resisting staining. A little too hard and it is brittle. These new steels seem to stress the heat treaters skill much more then some of the more foregiving (tried and true) steels.

I hope this helps you some. Please let us know what you decide and tell us how it all turns out after hunting season
smile.gif


Sid
 
Tom and Sid have it locked in. Freedom will soon be in short supply, come to think of it, it's in short supply now. Pick a good name with a proven record is the best advice.


C U in Atlanta

Old Pete

------------------
old pete
 
Well, it looks like I'm one of the only ones who hasn't jumped on the Stainless steel band wagon(I know I'll get some heat for that). But I think that good ol' High carbon/Tool steels are the way to go for everything except for dive knives and uncoated folders. Even simple 1095 beat the High Tech ATS-34 in a cardboard cutting test I did.

I think that O1, A2 and D2 are good for small/medium knives.

And for a big @$$ camp knife 5160 and L6 fit the bill.

If rust is a problem, then wipe it off after you use it and use a Tuff cloth.

Sincerely,
Adam

------------------
Self improvement is a hobby of mine :).

 
I've used a fair amount of D2, and it is far and away a superior tool steel, except for the fact that satin finishes are almost a necessity. I've played with a bit of CPM 10-V I got from the late Bob (Grind) Engnath, and have a knife made out of this stuff in the new A.G Russel catalog coming out shortly (with the proceeds going to his wife & son). the 10-V rusts like L6, but from what I've seen & heard, is tougher than the 420 & 440-V, and all of' em can be made "super-scary sharp! I've got a few feet of 3-V, and if I ever get caught up with the 'REAL JOB' & other knife committments, I'm agonna play with some of it.
FWIW, I heard someone used a piece of CPM 10-V as the center in a san-mai-type sandwich (Daryl Meier maybe?)Anybody heard about this?
Harry Jensen
Fresno, CA
 
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