What kind of stroke for benchstones?

[Frostyfingers]

I've always been taught to use a circular motion while sharpening knives on a benchstone. Is this right, or should I be using exclusively edge-leading or edge-trailing strokes? Does it matter?

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

There really is no kind of agreement on this. The best answer I can give is, do what works for you. Personally, I have tried all of the techniques you have mentioned, and get good results with all of them. It all really comes down to learning what is happening at the edge when you sharpen, and how to get the edge to do what you want, regardless of circuler, leading, or trailing.

Confused yet?

 

[Frostyfingers]

There really is no kind of agreement on this. The best answer I can give is, do what works for you. Personally, I have tried all of the techniques you have mentioned, and get good results with all of them. It all really comes down to learning what is happening at the edge when you sharpen, and how to get the edge to do what you want, regardless of circuler, leading, or trailing.

Confused yet?

That's really what I figured, I just wondered if there was a "right" way and a "wrong" way. I haven't practiced with benchstones enough to get a good edge, and I didn't want to start off doing it wrong! Thanks a lot! :thumbup:

 

[stitchawl]

Clock-wise... always clock-wise. Unless you're in the Southern hemisphere. Then is has to be anti-clockwise..

Stitchawl

 

[Gotsouthern]

There really is no kind of agreement on this. The best answer I can give is, do what works for you. Personally, I have tried all of the techniques you have mentioned, and get good results with all of them. It all really comes down to learning what is happening at the edge when you sharpen, and how to get the edge to do what you want, regardless of circuler, leading, or trailing.

Confused yet?

That pretty well sums it up. I do all sorts of different stuff at different times with different knives, its just what feels right at that moment with that blade. The important thing is they all come out looking right in the end and sharp enough you should be scared of it.

 

[Jason B.]

Going in circles is not the best way and can usually lead to incorrect bevel angles at he very least. I like using the Japanese waterstone method (thats what I call it anyways) keeping the edge on the hone and moving back and forth. For me it creates a strighter bevel and does it in less time.

That's the easy stuff though, the main problem that many seem to have with freehand is keeping the correct bevel angle for the curve of the knife. Many were taught the slice method and while it gets close its still not correct. No slicing motion is needed, when you place your blade on the stone and begin to push forward keep the handle at 90 degrees to the stone and just lift the handle of the knife. This lifting motion will correctly follow the angle and curve of the blade.

When you lift there is also one more motion that takes place and that's a roll, the best way to see this is by placing your knife on the stone and without moving it down the stone lift the handle. If you open you hand and lay it under the knife so just the weight of the blade is on the stone you will be able to feel it better.

 

[dantzk8]

No slicing motion is needed, when you place your blade on the stone and begin to push forward keep the handle at 90 degrees to the stone and just lift the handle of the knife. This lifting motion will correctly follow the angle and curve of the blade.

When you lift there is also one more motion that takes place and that's a roll, the best way to see this is by placing your knife on the stone and without moving it down the stone lift the handle. If you open you hand and lay it under the knife so just the weight of the blade is on the stone you will be able to feel it better.

I agree. Do you notice a variation of the sharpening angle when using a system like the Edgepro one (stone turning around an axis, edge being tangent to the circle)? Theoretically when the stone moves away from the clamp the angle is reduced. Is it noticeable for a blade, say 6 inches long?

dantzk.

 

[Jason B.]

I agree. Do you notice a variation of the sharpening angle when using a system like the Edgepro one (stone turning around an axis, edge being tangent to the circle)? Theoretically when the stone moves away from the clamp the angle is reduced. Is it noticeable for a blade, say 6 inches long?

dantzk.

Yes, the bigger the blade the more you notice it.

 

[cbwx34]

Do you notice a variation of the sharpening angle when using a system like the Edgepro one (stone turning around an axis, edge being tangent to the circle)? Theoretically when the stone moves away from the clamp the angle is reduced. Is it noticeable for a blade, say 6 inches long?--dantzk.

No, because on the EP, the blade is not clamped, you move it back and forth to keep it more in line with the arm. If it is clamped, then you would be correct.

cbw

 

[dantzk8]

No, because on the EP, the blade is not clamped, you move it back and forth to keep it more in line with the arm. If it is clamped, then you would be correct. cbw

Thanks, i confused with an other jig and thought the blade was clamped. It seems i can't find a good reason to don't buy an Edgepro...

dantzk.

 

[Lucky Bob]

That's the easy stuff though, the main problem that many seem to have with freehand is keeping the correct bevel angle for the curve of the knife. Many were taught the slice method and while it gets close its still not correct. No slicing motion is needed, when you place your blade on the stone and begin to push forward keep the handle at 90 degrees to the stone and just lift the handle of the knife. This lifting motion will correctly follow the angle and curve of the blade.

When you lift there is also one more motion that takes place and that's a roll, the best way to see this is by placing your knife on the stone and without moving it down the stone lift the handle. If you open you hand and lay it under the knife so just the weight of the blade is on the stone you will be able to feel it better.

So you're saying that it's better to lift the butt of the knife instead of keeping the tangent of the edge perpendicular to the stone? How do you figure that?

 

[Jason B.]

So you're saying that it's better to lift the butt of the knife instead of keeping the tangent of the edge perpendicular to the stone? How do you figure that?

Because it follows the angle and curve of the blade in a more correct path. The angle you sharpen at does not stay the same if the blade has a curve in it.

No, because on the EP, the blade is not clamped, you move it back and forth to keep it more in line with the arm. If it is clamped, then you would be correct.

Even though it does not have a clamp this does not mean that it is okay to move the blade while sharpening. If you move the blade the angle of your bevel will change across the length of the blade.

 

[cbwx34]

Even though it does not have a clamp this does not mean that it is okay to move the blade while sharpening. If you move the blade the angle of your bevel will change across the length of the blade.

That's not how the EP works. Moving the blade keeps it more in line with the arm, which minimizes the angle change. So the arm doesn't have to swing out to cover the entire blade.

cbw

 

[Lucky Bob]

Because it follows the angle and curve of the blade in a more correct path. The angle you sharpen at does not stay the same if the blade has a curve in it.

We have to determine what cross-section we're analyzing, first. I would posit that the meaningful one is perpendicular to the edge of the blade at any given point. Agreed?

 

[Jason B.]

That's not how the EP works. Moving the blade keeps it more in line with the arm, which minimizes the angle change. So the arm doesn't have to swing out to cover the entire blade.

cbw

Unless its a stright blade the angle will change, as you move the blade down the height of the blade changes due to the curve, this height change will change the angle that the stone contacts the edge unless you move the arm to a new angle setting. The edge pro is not any different than any other guided system except that its made to a more percise level. The arm still swings in the same way as any other guided system and thus will cut a single stright angle across the plain. The problem is the arc that is created, with knives that have a ULU type blade shape the edge pro would probably work best because it would be closer to the arc that the device is making. Remember, your pivoting on a axis and if you were to make a complete pivot that would make a circle, so in sence your cutting perfect beveled circles with any guided device making it imposible the follow the curve of every different style of blade.

 

[cbwx34]

Again, that's not how it works. I'm guessing at this point you've never used one. If you had, you would know why you're not correct in how it functions.

cbw

 

[Jason B.]

Please do explain then.

 

[cbwx34]

Please do explain then.

I kinda did already. The EP is different from most guided systems in that the blade is not clamped... it's held on a 'table'. This allows you to draw the blade across, keeping the area you're sharpening in line with arm. In theory, you could lock the arm from pivoting (you can't actually do this), and just move the stone up and down drawing the knife across. You also pivot the knife against the blade stop allowing you to keep the same approx. angle as you, for example sharpen a curved belly toward the tip. (Also the stone arm rotates, so it's basically the reverse of what you described when you wrote about lifting the handle). Now, practically, the arm does pivot, otherwise you would have to come up with some way of sharpening around handles, thumbstuds, etc. that would hit the table. Another difference is that the arm is longer than most guided systems so that the angle change of going a couple inches on either side of the table is negligible. You won't see the bevel widen as you do when sharpened for example on a Lansky. So, whether you're sharpening a knife that's 2 in. long or 20 in. long, it doesn't matter, because the area that is being sharpened is, in a practical sense, in the same position in relation to the stone / arm.

cbw

 

[Jason B.]

That's not anything I didn't already know but the part about you moving the blade on the table is different from even how its shown in the instructional video. The other thing I think your not understanding is the arc, no matter what device you have if the arm is fixed to one point and you move the end of the arm it will be a circle in any direction. I'm sure the edgepro is a very good tool but theirs nothing special about it that makes it different from any other fixed angle system, the point from the edge of the knife to the arms connecting point is still called a radius.

They do a good job and I'm not saying they don't but the problem still remains that they are unable to follow the curve of all styles of blades. Any time you change the distance from the axis point to the edge the angle will change because the radius becomes smaller, unless you were to not move the arm side to side and just move the knife but that's not how the system was intended to be used.

 

[cbwx34]

Like I said before, this just boils down to you've never used one. The video on the website is not the total picture. I can assure you the method I describe above is accurate. And I do understand what you're saying, but in practical terms it isn't an issue. There's probably more of an angle change in your freehand sharpening than what you would get on the EP. You do move the knife... that is how the system is intended to be used. Don't draw your conclusions from the one example. You also get an instruction book, (and a different video if you get the instructional video) that has much more info. That's the problem here, you're preaching theory, based on one example, thinking that you now know how it works. And your final statement shows that you don't quite get it, because it's wrong. It woud be the same as if I watched you do only one part of your sharpening, say on an XF stone, then went around saying... "all knifenut uses is an XF stone do all his sharpening".

cbw