What makes a knife "traditional"?

[knifeswapper]

Is it a backspring? Is it the blade shape? Is it the frame character?

I have two traditional knives that mean a lot to me. My maternal grandfather's knife, a Case carbon red bone trapper, which is heavily used and stained from West Texas farming and cutting plug tobacco. And my fathers Case SS stockman that he carried, but I remember most from the summertime chore of working cattle. In all fairness he complained about the edge holding ability every time he pulled it out and eventually started using a scalpel and finally banding calves at birth.

So, I always felt fairly comfortable in spotting and understanding "pocketknives". But as quality slipjoints have become harder and harder to source over the years; I have expanded my selection and thus broadened my actual field of view. My requirement for multiple blades has not yet grown to the point of my predecessors. So, I am typically drawn to single blade models.

So, the question. I have no intention nor the skill to build a better mousetrap. And part of my love of traditional's is the "tradition". But at what point is it no longer a traditional?

For example, if you incorporate a detent system on a typically traditional knife instead of a backspring - is it still traditional?

If you implement a non-traditional blade shape on a standard frame - is it traditional?

Or, if you put a clip blade and backspring in a frame grandfather wouldn't have touched with a ten foot pole - is it traditional?

It seems "traditional" is loosely coupled with the architecture of a slipjoint (with or without lock). But I would like to hear your opinion on the matter?

 

[Jfowler]

I think everyone's idea of traditional will differ some. I like the older patterns made with bone or wood handles crafted the way they were a hundred years ago .

 

[Rambler]

I think everyone's idea of traditional will differ some. I like the older patterns made with bone or wood handles crafted the way they were a hundred years ago .

Additionally,I stick to carbon steel all the time.

 

[jackknife]

If my grandfather, or even great grandfather could see the knife and recognize it, that's a good guide.

 

[supratentorial]

In terms of the forum rules, that is the discretion of the moderators. They specifically rule out thumb studs/Spydie holes, pocket clips, and Walker liner locks. Adding a detent system would be similar or same as Walker liner lock. So the forum rules might rule it out. For my own definition, it's a grey area. For me, patterns (usually defined by handle and blades) is mostly how a knife is defined. A barlow is still a barlow even with a modern locking mechanism.

In general, the category of "traditional" exists mainly on the internet and on forums. Sal Glesser is also to blame. He created the modern category necessitating that everything without a Spydie hole and pocket clip must be called something else.

 

[knifeswapper]

My grandfather probably would not have noticed a detent system instead of a backspring until he had time to sit, cut a plug, and ponder the meaning of the universe (as well as the knife in his hand). Otherwise, in a knife that looks like many other traditional's we meet one over-riding criteria but not a separate sub-criteria. My grandfather would recognize the knife instantly, even though one internal mechanism may be a bit different (don't really know the history of the detent system enough to call it modern).

Not to offend, but I am not really looking for any given forums rules as much as the thoughts of fellow knife nuts.

 

[afishhunter]

A "Traditional" knife can be a single or multi-bladed knife.
For the most part, they do not have one hand opening (excepions would include the "one armed" knife automatic/switchblades, and butterfly knives. Note that switchblades were made with more than one blade, and not just a stelleto or weapon. We do not talk about switchblades and butterfly knives in this forum (even though both are a traditional knife) because they have their own sub-forum.)
and they do not have a pocket clip.
A traditional does not necessarily have a back spring. Friction folders such as Opinel (with or without the lock ring) and MAM, are also a traditional knife.
I think one of the definitions used here is
"If your grandparents or great grandparents would recognize it, it is a traditional knife."

Of course now that some of us have become
grandparents or even great grandparents since the development of the "modern" knife, that last definition might need to be tweeked just a wee little bit?

 

[supratentorial]

I put the forum rules bit in there mainly to make sure the moderators know that I am distinguishing my opinion on the definition as a separate issue. I'm definitely not trying to challenge the forum rules. Nor do I think that's the intention of this topic.

Some would argue that putting a midlock on a barlow makes it non traditional. I still think it's a barlow. But I don't think the majority of knife buyers care what it's called. They'll just buy it! I think there is a real and growing market for knives that look like oldies but have upgraded materials and locking mechanisms.

 

[knifeswapper]

I put the forum rules bit in there mainly to make sure the moderators know that I am distinguishing my opinion on the definition as a separate issue. I'm definitely not trying to challenge the forum rules. Nor do I think that's the intention of this topic.

Some would argue that putting a midlock on a barlow makes it non traditional. I still think it's a barlow. But I don't think the majority of knife buyers care what it's called. They'll just buy it! I think there is a real and growing market for knives that look like oldies but have upgraded materials and locking mechanisms.

I understand. I didn't really clarify in the original if I was referring to BF or just the hobby in general.

One thing about having several knives come thru my shop is that you see 100 year old knives that have mechanisms, frame shapes, blades, etc. that would never meet the qualifications here on "traditional". Nor most peoples idea of a "tradition"al knife. But I am just wondering, in peoples own minds, where they draw the line?

 

[mb>]

I've never been clear on this either. Is a TA Davison in CPM 154 traditional? Is a Buck 110? A fixed blade in carbon steel, and maybe not in modern super steel?

My mind pictures a non-locking slipjoint when I hear "traditional," regardless of the steel. I don't even think of fixed blades, though they have more history than most/any other knives made of steel.

 

[Will Power]

My simplistic definition : they're beautiful and usually improve with use and age

Unlike just about everything else

 

[Railsplitter]

Some would argue that putting a midlock on a barlow makes it non traditional. I still think it's a barlow. But I don't think the majority of knife buyers care what it's called. They'll just buy it! I think there is a real and growing market for knives that look like oldies but have upgraded materials and locking mechanisms.

Jake's comment above is where I stand on the subject. "Traditional" is just a casual term that I never really considered until I started hanging out on The Porch. I don't really consider the term in my day to day life but I use it here for obvious reasons.

 

[Lapedog]

It's a grey area. There are things like modern traditionals a la Lionsteel Roundhead, Victorinor is sort of traditional sort of modern.

What about the case Russlock, it has a liner lock, is it traditional?

 

[B.F.U]

I'm younger than most here, so I don't have a long formed definition of what used to be the standard. I've always had and been around modern knives alongside traditionals. My first knife was a Victorinox Classic, which some here would say isn't traditional or is semi-modern.

I have found in my time here that there is no hard definition. I've posted things that I thought were traditional, or at least enough in part traditional to fit here, and gotten words from moderators to the contrary (unfortunately I was much more stubborn and willing to argue over such a silly thing when I first joined the forum).

I think the saying originally applied to another hotly contested but very different subject applies to traditional knives also; "I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it"


....................................... most of the time

 

[22-rimfire]

I really don't know the line drawn here in this forum. For the most part I know it when I see it after the obvious things like pocket clips, thumb studs, and so forth. I still make mistakes relative to the forum determinations. The Walker liner lock was mentioned and Victorinox uses that design on some of their larger slip joints and I consider them traditional same as the one hand feature on models like the Trekker. Now they are offering clip models. Traditional still? I think so.

Traditional design (essentially slip joint) and traditional/natural materials.... But the materials aspect has been crossed these days many times with stuff like micarta handles and so forth. I definitely consider TA Davison's slip joints traditional regardless of what handle material or blade steel he uses.

Are back locks traditional? I think so. But many Spyderco models have back locks and they aren't considered traditional.

It gets harder when you shift to fixed blades as far as I'm concerned. Glass breakers and blackened/painted blades are out... but should they be? Cabelas sells a Buck 192 that has a blued/blackened blade but looks traditional to me. I have no idea and I suspect that is one of the reasons fixed blades are seldom discussed in this forum. Is a Spyderco Moran traditional? I think so.

 

[LastRodeo]

Jake's comment above is where I stand on the subject. "Traditional" is just a casual term that I never really considered until I started hanging out on The Porch. I don't really consider the term in my day to day life but I use it here for obvious reasons.

This is true for me also. The knives I had before finding BF were fixed blades, SAK, Bucks and my “fancy knife” was a Case. I didn’t classify them as traditional knife, they were just the tools for tasks. Knives have become a hobby for me and I own a wider variety now.

 

[boy&hisdogs]

Before I was on any forums or into traditional knives at all I called them grandpa knives, becuase that's what my grandpa always carried. I was all about Leatherman back then. To me a "grandpa knife" was a two handed opener, either slipjoint or back/mid lock. They were small and smooth and the handles were made from parts rather than big machined slabs of plastic or metal. They were without anything "tactical" like pocket clips or thumb studs.

My early definition was pretty close to what is used here. I like the "wouldn't look out of place in the mid sixties" rule of thumb we have here, and that's what I go by 99% of the time. For me the steels and handle materials don't matter, but the design does. A spoon is still a spoon whether you carve it from wood, stamp sheet steel or cast it in bronze. It stops being a spoon when you put tines on it though. So a barlow with carbon fiber scales is still traditional IMO, but if you give it a thumb stud and/or a liner lock then it's a modern knife that kinda looks like a barlow.

A lot of it is just the impression that the knife gives you though. It's just that in the interest of fairness and consistency the mods had to come up with an objective checklist. It might feel clunky at times and we will always be finding possible exceptions but such is life.

 

[Peregrin]

Before I was on any forums or into traditional knives at all I called them grandpa knives, becuase that's what my grandpa always carried. I was all about Leatherman back then. To me a "grandpa knife" was a two handed opener, either slipjoint or back/mid lock. They were small and smooth and the handles were made from parts rather than big machined slabs of plastic or metal. They were without anything "tactical" like pocket clips or thumb studs.

My early definition was pretty close to what is used here. I like the "wouldn't look out of place in the mid sixties" rule of thumb we have here, and that's what I go by 99% of the time. For me the steels and handle materials don't matter, but the design does. A spoon is still a spoon whether you carve it from wood, stamp sheet steel or cast it in bronze. It stops being a spoon when you put tines on it though. So a barlow with carbon fiber scales is still traditional IMO, but if you give it a thumb stud and/or a liner lock then it's a modern knife that kinda looks like a barlow.

A lot of it is just the impression that the knife gives you though. It's just that in the interest of fairness and consistency the mods had to come up with an objective checklist. It might feel clunky at times and we will always be finding possible exceptions but such is life.

This post hits the nail on the head for me.
A lot of other great responses too.
I told myself I wouldn't touch this thread with a 10 foot peanut, but I don't always take my own advise.

 

[black mamba]

Since I'm over 60 now, I no longer need the grandpa rule. If I recognize a knife from my youth, I think of it as traditional. In paring things down, I have decided that materials don't make a knife traditional or non-traditional. Even a hundred years ago they experimented with stainless steel, man-made handles, etc. Construction methods don't seem to be a determining factor either. Pinned or unpinned shields, solid or welded bolsters, screws or nails for attaching handles have all been around for many, many decades. So it seems to me that form follows function, and they both determine the "traditionalness" of a knife. Slipjoint or locking, a knife of recognizable pattern and blade shapes, that opens by grasping the blade and swinging it open manually, seem to be the rules.

 

[Dean51]

This post hits the nail on the head for me.
A lot of other great responses too.
I told myself I wouldn't touch this thread with a 10 foot peanut, but I don't always take my own advise.

I don't have my 10ft peanut with me today.

I consider traditionals, pocket knives and only use the term traditional on forums. I know I'm dating myself.

In some cases my definition of traditional is different than the moderators and many here.
I do not think of a SAK as a traditional knife, growing up I never knew anyone who carried a SAK. Out side of forums I still don't know anyone who carries a SAK. I always looked at it as a Swiss Army knife, it's kind of in a class of it's own but it's not a multitool.

I don't care what steel a pocket knife uses. A barlow with Powered Metal steel is as much of a barlow as one with simple carbon steel.

I not concerned about handle material. The way I see it if celluloid, delrin or acrylic can be considered traditional. Then why not micarta, G10 or carbon fiber. They are all synthetic materials.

I look at all four of these knives as traditional pocket knives. All though I'm sure that the moderators won't consider the Fallkniven traditional. Just as I'm sure there are some who do not consider the Roundhead a traditional.

The Fallkniven has no provision for a clip, no opening assist, no thumb stud or hole in the blade. It's a simple 2 hand opening liner lock. The fact that it has a Walker Liner Lock by the rules makes it a modern knife. If it is not a one hand opener is it a true walker liner lock?

Rules are rules and my pay grade does not involve changing the rules.