What properties should wootz/bulat have?

idaho

idaho

Joined
May 5, 2005
Messages
955
I got a wootz blade from a knifemaker friend.

He has knowledge and experience and whole smelting and forging process was correct.
The look and feel of the blade is good as well.

But how can I test if this wootz is not just good steel but an exceptional one?
What properties should it have?

I will post pictures later on.
 
Maybe the question needs to come back to you. What exceptional characteristics were you expecting when you bought it?
 
I didn't bought it. I've received it, to play with, and to test it.

For what I see now -
it sharpens nice and fast, but quite loud. It skids on Arkansas stone, probably there are some many cementite structures that arkansas cannot cut. I had no problem with carbon steels over 60 hrc on that stone. Good.

Hardness - bit over 55hrc, I wonder if that is not to hard.

Cutting - very good, but I need to make a handle to make longer cutting session.
 
I'm not sure you're going to find what you are looking for. Wootz steel was renowned, sure. But that was at a time when high-carbon alloys were virtually unheard of in the west. Wootz is unlikely to outperform current high carbon crucible steels. It should be a good steel. But exceptional? It depends on what you are looking for. Toughness? Fineness of edge? Flexibility? Ease of sharpening?
 
I'm have never had any hands on time with wootz, and I'm not sure the size of your knife, but 55hrc is more like axe head hardness to me. How did you measure the hardness?

-Adam
 
Adam Reese said:
I'm have never had any hands on time with wootz, and I'm not sure the size of your knife, but 55hrc is more like axe head hardness to me. How did you measure the hardness?

-Adam
Click to expand...

Measured with hardness files.
While I could agree that 55hrc would be ok for a sharp axe, then I'm not sure if standard (60-61hrc) hardness of the matrix would work for wootz blade. We need to remember that it is banded steel, with high amount of cementite(65hrc). if martensite matrix would be very hard as well, steel would be quite britte, and the "stay-sharp" effect wootz SHOULD have would not exist.

We will see.
 
Wootz is softer than a normal high carbon steel blade because the matrix is carbon depleted. The hard carbides distributed through the softer blade structure make a serrated like edge. It cuts well on meat and rope, but will not be exceptional or better than a 1095 blade. As a slicer it is poor. The reason wootz is popular is because of it's nostalgia.
 
When searching for the secrets of wootz someone finally did a complete analysis of early blades - they found vanadium .The original wootz contained vanadium -that's the secret ! When that ore was depleted wootz disappeared.The original cast structure is then forged out but the higher melting point vanadium carbides remain to give a wear resistant edge ! That's what you see when you etch a blade !
Now they re-invented the wheel in alloys like S30V ,V for vanadium ! LOL
 
mete said:
When searching for the secrets of wootz someone finally did a complete analysis of early blades - they found vanadium .The original wootz contained vanadium -that's the secret ! When that ore was depleted wootz disappeared.The original cast structure is then forged out but the higher melting point vanadium carbides remain to give a wear resistant edge ! That's what you see when you etch a blade !
Now they re-invented the wheel in alloys like S30V ,V for vanadium ! LOL
Click to expand...

The chemical analysis does not show enough vanadium to even think about creating vanadium carbides in meaningfull quantity.
wootz is about Fe3C structure, and steel microallyoed with vanadium might in fact be the best.
But it is not the same as 0,5%-3%V found in modern steels.
 
Damn, I thought it was the souls of the elders and ancient mystical rituals that made the soul of the steel come to life. :grumpy:
 
From an analysis of Wootz steel:

A major conclusion of the studies on reconstructed wootz Damascus steel17-18 is that the band formation in these steels results from microsegregation of low levels of carbide-forming elements from V, Mo, Cr, Mn, and Nb, with vanadium and molybdenum being most effective. Experiments have shown that vanadium levels as low as 40 parts per million by weight (ppmw) are quite effective in producing the bands of clustered Fe3C particles. The data of Table III show that all of the hypereutectoid steels contain vanadium at or above this level, except for the Voigt blade.

Here's the article:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html
 
bladsmth said:
Wootz is softer than a normal high carbon steel blade because the matrix is carbon depleted. The hard carbides distributed through the softer blade structure make a serrated like edge
Click to expand...

Thank you Stacy for clearing that up. I was wondering about that.

-Adam
 
Willie71 said:
Damn, I thought it was the souls of the elders and ancient mystical rituals that made the soul of the steel come to life. :grumpy:
Click to expand...

tryppyr said:
And the blood of virgins.
Click to expand...

to perform the ritual right, you need to first find some Magnesian stone and heat it untill it fall off,
quench in virgin blood is ok, but only 2 weeks after full moon, other wise it leaves a nasty patina.
temper can be done in slowly simmered asses off witches brooms


kidding aside, i like the looks of a nicely made blade with wootz pattern , will not give it any other mystical properties
as it is a process off, at the time, trying to get the best out off iron,
metallurgy has stepped up a significant step since that days
 
Willie, thanks for posting that .I have a copy somewhere but I'd have to dig for it .That article will tell you all you want to know.
 
I wonder why people don't marvel over the wonders of making weapons from bronze. :)
 
tryppyr said:
I wonder why people don't marvel over the wonders of making weapons from bronze. :)
Click to expand...

People didn't use their ancestors bones to add carbon to Bronze increasing the performance. I don't think they realized it was the carbon, not the ancestor's soul that improved the steel. If they did, they didn't market it that way. :rolleyes:
 
idaho said:
I didn't bought it. I've received it, to play with, and to test it.

For what I see now -
it sharpens nice and fast, but quite loud. It skids on Arkansas stone, probably there are some many cementite structures that arkansas cannot cut. I had no problem with carbon steels over 60 hrc on that stone. Good.

Hardness - bit over 55hrc, I wonder if that is not to hard.

Cutting - very good, but I need to make a handle to make longer cutting session.
Click to expand...


Did you make a handle for it yet? It would be interesting to do some side by side comparison of cutting different materials with a blade of O-1 or 1095. Do the same tests that you would use for a modern knife and see how the wootz blade compares, I think everyone, including the maker of the blade, would be interested in your results.
 
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