What steel will hold a 25 degree inclusive edge the best?

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winguy7

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Nov 30, 2013
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I've been edc'n a para 2 in s30v for a year now with this edge, and I'm sick of touching it up after every use. It folds or chips after one light use. As far as I'm concerned s30v is a glorified letter opener. Now I know some people like it and I respect their opinions, it just doesn't fit my bill. Problem is good steel is expensive, and I'm looking for user experience with brands/knives/steels that will not roll or chip with light use at a more acute angle. I like my knives dam sharp, and I'd like one that stays that way at least for a little bit. I have a nice but small collection and don't mind buying a double if it will fit my needs, I just cant afford to play around with them. So does any steel manage to hold that angle well? I am talking light use here. Mostly used for cutting green or dead branches, with rope occasionally. My thoughts would be spydie manix 2 in s110v, or something in m4 or 204p. Also m390 is a strong consideration. What are you're opinions?
 
S30V is generally no weaker than those others you mention even at 12.5-dps, although there isn't any reason to go below 15-dps, but you may desire a thinner blade behind the edge, ~0.010 to 0.015. If it is giving you trouble in "light use" then you may have a burr on the edge that is folding over or cracking away. This indicates the need for further edge-refinement when sharpening. What is your sharpening equipment and technique? What other steels are you familiar with? 420HC from Buck or Gerber? 8Cr13MoV? Aus-8? These are "budget" stainless steels that should handle the tasks you've indicated with as much ease as S30V should. You could also opt for carbon steels like 1095 and O1 and 52100. Have you experience with Mora knives or Victorinox/Wenger or Opinel? Start cheap, heck get a box-cutter and work your way from there.
 
No, no burr. I free hand with a combination of stones, using dmt stones and spyderco ceramic's. Going up to the ultra fine ceramic and then finishing with multiple diamond paste strops. Checking with a loupe when I'm done. I've been machining 440C for two weeks now, and nothing in the 400 series is going in my pocket. I'm not being snobby, that's just out of principle. Although, if I had to machine the more premium steels I may quit knives altogether. I have already started with cheaper knives so I'm familiar with those steels. S30V does microchip very easily, even with a micro bevel for me at that angle. I hunt and fish (occasionally see the wife) all year and like to edc quality knives, just cant afford to go though a bunch of them in use. Most of the high end knives I buy get put in the safe to be handed down one day. I realize what I'm asking may be a perfect world scenario, But I don't think it is. Not with the price you pay for spyderco's and benchmades, etc. So given that, the question is two fold. A. will the higher end steels stand up to that angle with light use? B. What specific models/heat treats would you recommend?
 
winguy7 said:
No, no burr. I free hand with a combination of stones, using dmt stones and spyderco ceramic's. Going up to the ultra fine ceramic and then finishing with multiple diamond paste strops. Checking with a loupe when I'm done. I've been machining 440C for two weeks now, and nothing in the 400 series is going in my pocket. I'm not being snobby, that's just out of principle. Although, if I had to machine the more premium steels I may quit knives altogether. I have already started with cheaper knives so I'm familiar with those steels. S30V does microchip very easily, even with a micro bevel for me at that angle. I hunt and fish (occasionally see the wife) all year and like to edc quality knives, just cant afford to go though a bunch of them in use. Most of the high end knives I buy get put in the safe to be handed down one day. I realize what I'm asking may be a perfect world scenario, But I don't think it is. Not with the price you pay for spyderco's and benchmades, etc. So given that, the question is two fold. A. will the higher end steels stand up to that angle with light use? B. What specific models/heat treats would you recommend?
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Sounds to me like you really need to speak with a custom maker and explain to him exactly what you want and expect the knife to do and explain to him exactly what you do plan on doing with the said knife.

The problem with MOST production knives is they are too thick behind the edge (.025-.035) so when you start going with the lower edge angles you are weakening the edge too much by making the edge bevel too large and that will cause problems.....

However with a custom knife you can get the blade geometry thinner like in the .010 - .015 range and use a more normal 15 DPS or even 10 DPS depending on the maker, steel etc.

All of that would be things to go over with the Custom maker though.
 
You probably got a burr. I've got much less wear resistant steels with 15 degree angles and they hold up fine. One is in 4116 Krupp which is relatively soft, had the same problem so i started stropping it to make sure the burr was removed as much as possible, works great now and holds an edge just fine.
 
If your knife edge both chips or rolls under light use, something is wrong with either the steel or your sharpening technique. Chipping indicates low toughness. Rolling indicates low strength. Also, sharpness has nothing to do with edge angle. 40-degree edges can be sharper than 25-degree inclusive edges.

When S30V came out, there were many reports of chipping. Those complaints have mainly disappeared as manufacturers have learned how to treat and sharpen the steel, but you could have a bad blade, although I think it's more likely in your sharpening technique. You might try sharpening it without diamonds to make sure you're not leaving deep scratches that facilitate chipping. Ankerson just went through a test of a S110V blade than another person was having trouble with chipping, but Ankerson sharpened it up and it worked fine. We don't know what the difference was in those two experiences, but sharpening technique would be an obvious candidate.

S30V is a really good steel that offers a nice blend of strength, toughness and wear resistance. S110V will give you more wear resistance, but less toughness (and so be more prone to chipping.) Rolling would most likely be reduced by increasing hardness -- going with a higher Rc, such as 60 Rc or higher. (But going higher in Rc can reduce toughness and resistance to chipping.) Powder steels can generally be taken to a higher hardness, have better wear resistance and offer finer, better distributed carbides that are less likely to be ripped out and appear as micro chips.

I'd guess that M390 or its variants would do everything that you need. M4 is excellent, also, but it's not stainless. Elmax is probably the toughest of the stainless steels, so it would most resist chipping.

I'd echo Ankerson that going with a better blade geometry might be a better choice for you than trying to make an acute edge do all the heavy lifting by itself. My Sebenza is 0.017 inches behind the edge. The mini-Rukus that I just bought is 0.020 behind the edge. I find that to be a nice range, but few manufacturers advertise edge width on their blades.
 
Twindog said:
If your knife edge both chips or rolls under light use, something is wrong with either the steel or your sharpening technique. Chipping indicates low toughness. Rolling indicates low strength. Also, sharpness has nothing to do with edge angle. 40-degree edges can be sharper than 25-degree inclusive edges.

When S30V came out, there were many reports of chipping. Those complaints have mainly disappeared as manufacturers have learned how to treat and sharpen the steel, but you could have a bad blade, although I think it's more likely in your sharpening technique. You might try sharpening it without diamonds to make sure you're not leaving deep scratches that facilitate chipping. Ankerson just went through a test of a S110V blade than another person was having trouble with chipping, but Ankerson sharpened it up and it worked fine. We don't know what the difference was in those two experiences, but sharpening technique would be an obvious candidate.

S30V is a really good steel that offers a nice blend of strength, toughness and wear resistance. S110V will give you more wear resistance, but less toughness (and so be more prone to chipping.) Rolling would most likely be reduced by increasing hardness -- going with a higher Rc, such as 60 Rc or higher. (But going higher in Rc can reduce toughness and resistance to chipping.) Powder steels can generally be taken to a higher hardness, have better wear resistance and offer finer, better distributed carbides that are less likely to be ripped out and appear as micro chips.

I'd guess that M390 or its variants would do everything that you need. M4 is excellent, also, but it's not stainless. Elmax is probably the toughest of the stainless steels, so it would most resist chipping.

I'd echo Ankerson that going with a better blade geometry might be a better choice for you than trying to make an acute edge do all the heavy lifting by itself. My Sebenza is 0.017 inches behind the edge. The mini-Rukus that I just bought is 0.020 behind the edge. I find that to be a nice range, but few manufacturers advertise edge width on their blades.
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Yep.....

I have a custom FB in CPM 10V coming, will be in the 64+ range and .005" or less behind the edge..... :)
 
If you have a blade made from an alloy that has decent to great reviews, and your experiences do not coincide, the problem may stem from either a steel that is not made from the stated alloy, a run of steel that did not meet the alloy specs., or most likely, a batch of blades that were not heat treated including thorough tempering. Do you have access to a good Rockwell hardness tester(Wilson etc.)? If the hardness is where it should be, a cryogenic tempering may help to improve your experiences.
Some people say nice things about aus-8, which does not meet with my experiences. When after cutting the poly mesh wrappings from both sides of two round hay bales that are 4ft wide, for a total of 16ft of cutting a freshly sharpened(45 deg. included) will have a rolled edge or just be polished to a smooth radiused edge. Cause ? Don't know, and I am about ready to make a replacement from a piece of D2, or at least A2, maybe O1, all of which I have used for stamping dies and trimming blades. I would much rather have a sharp brown blade than a dull shiny one. Good luck on your hunt.
Regards to all.
 
Thanks for the replies. A nice custom will definitely be coming down the pipe in the future, but for now I'm just going to roll the dice on a production that I put a lot of thought into. I'm going to stick to my guns though and say that the problem is the steel, or at least my piece of steel. The latter would surprise me though, as I don't hear many bad things about spydie's heat treat. On the other hand I've worked production for over a decade now and bad product always gets through. I just need something with more toughness to it. I'd love to see a folder in cpm rex t15. I use it all the time at work on form tools, its an excellent steel. Next best thing in a folder I'm going to find currently is cpm m4, though we do have older form tools made out of regular m4 and it's not all that good. P.S. not to cocky but it isn't the sharpening, I've got crazy skills in that respect.
 
Ankerson said:
The problem with MOST production knives is they are too thick behind the edge (.025-.035) so when you start going with the lower edge angles you are weakening the edge too much by making the edge bevel too large and that will cause problems.....
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Jim,

I have hard time figuring this out. Let's say a production knife with equal steel and HT, being thinned down to the custom range (behind the edge), how would it be weaker than a custom with same thinness, regardless how wide the bevel is. The bevel can be narrower, if the blade is thin to start with, and a wide bevel is sign that the blade profile is too thick. A too thick blade is not as strong as thin one? :confused:
 
I'm inclined to think the heat-treat is off on your knife.

I only h.ave one knife in S30V, a scandi Enzo Birk 75, and I never had a knife that needs this little maintenance. I've had to do some minor edge repair just once, & that was when I was stupid enough to drop the knife on the edge of a stone ashtray. Even then I was surprised there was only so little damage. Otherwise there isn't even a need for regular sharpening after 5 months of daily use where I touch up my other knives (vg10, O1 & 52100) every week or every other week or so depending on usage.
 
It's not about the steel or the angle but the hardness of the blade. Without exceptional hardness of the selected steel then going to a low angle will likely end in failure. I wouldn't expect ANY! Production knife to hold such a angle.

Call me silly, but wouldn't it be easier to put the proper edge on the knife?
 
You're right I'm going to re-profile that knife today and see how it does. On a side note all this posting reminded that I should probably touch up the wife's rainbow leek in Sandvik. She carries it every day in her purse, and I haven't touched it in six months or so. Before she handed it to me I had asked what she uses it for. I got all kinds of horrible but funny responses. Including cutting the front cleats off of kids baseball shoes, at a soccer game. Needless to say I expected a dull mangled mess, what I got back was paper cutting sharp. After a few strops it was hair whittling sharp again. If I remember right that knife has about a 30 degree inclusive. Solidifying Sandvik as my favorite "economy" steel. Especially on that thin little blade. I do differ from you're point of view with regard's in expecting production knives holding that edge however. Just need to find to find one with the right steel and blade geometry for me. Time will tell I guess.
 
The real problem is we don't know what the problem is. Did the OP get a bad blade? Is there something wrong with his sharpening technique? Does his edge get light use, as the OP suggests, or is it harder use than he thinks. We don't know.

A 25-degree inclusive edge on S30V is more acute than usual, but not all that acute for light use. Factory Spyderco knives are often ground at 30 degrees inclusive, and I remember one being 28 degrees.

As a rule of thumb, adding hardness will reduce rolling, but increase chipping. Geometry cuts and the steel supports that geometry. Everything is about balance. Geometry and steel characteristics work together to accomplish the cutting task. We can't ignore either. Go too far with geometry, and you'll have a devil of a time finding steel to support that geometry, especially under hard use. Go too far with blunt-force geometry, and any steel will support the edge, but cutting performance will suffer.

One clue might be the material that the OP is cutting: green and dead branches. I've found that cutting branches is much, much harder on an edge that we think. Branches have knots and joints and twisted grain patterns that can put a lot of lateral force on an edge. And branches often move when cut, leading to sudden changes in force vectors on the edge. I cut intruding branches often when walking down trails. I had a huge Cold Steel Voyager early in my knife days, and one day I noticed a huge roll -- about the size of a half penny -- in the edge after cutting some small, overhanging branches. The blade had fairly acute geometry. I think it was hollow ground, but the edge would have been factory, probably about 40 degrees inclusive. So one possibility is that the OP's "light use" is actually hard use.
 
I must agree with some of the sentiment expressed here. Why oh why would you specify an inclusive angle that you have demonstrated (repeatedly) is not appropriate for your uses?

While I share your preference for very sharp blades and against S30V, I do not understand selecting an angle then hoping to build the rest of the knife around it.

I'll suggest that a lot of steels could perform well enough that a majority of regulars here would not be able to descern it from other alloys in a blind test. I'd also suggest that any/every steel will fail as you describe if zero concern is given to geometry and proper honing techniques/execution.

Simply put, there are a lot of variables I'd consider evaluating before you specify an alloy and angle.
 
Well because I don't think its inappropriate at all. It's just that knife or steel can't handle it. Admittedly my usuage of the knife might be considered hard by some, although if anything I'd call it middle of road at most. Knots in branches can be hell on an edge, and I do avoid them for the most part. I'm definitly not batoning with this or any folder. As far as the branches go I'm really just sharpening stakes. I know what not do with an edge, and Im not trying turn this into argument about s30v. I have carried other knives with it, and I just don't like it. I've never seen or read any stellar reviews on it. Like I have other steels. Which is why I wanted to know from first hand experience, if anyone uses a steel that can handle that angle. Why? cause I'm stubborn and think there is.
 
winguy7 said:
You're right I'm going to re-profile that knife today and see how it does. On a side note all this posting reminded that I should probably touch up the wife's rainbow leek in Sandvik. She carries it every day in her purse, and I haven't touched it in six months or so. Before she handed it to me I had asked what she uses it for. I got all kinds of horrible but funny responses. Including cutting the front cleats off of kids baseball shoes, at a soccer game. Needless to say I expected a dull mangled mess, what I got back was paper cutting sharp. After a few strops it was hair whittling sharp again. If I remember right that knife has about a 30 degree inclusive. Solidifying Sandvik as my favorite "economy" steel. Especially on that thin little blade. I do differ from you're point of view with regard's in expecting production knives holding that edge however. Just need to find to find one with the right steel and blade geometry for me. Time will tell I guess.
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I think 99% of what you're looking for is right there. In reading this thread, it seems most of your issues pertain more to the edge's tendency to deform (roll, dent) or chip (fracture); both of which are more related to the hardness and possibly grain fineness (both resulting from and/or affected by heat treat, BTW), and very little due to abrasion resistance (carbide-heavy content). I've been thinking all along, all you really need for the chores you mention (trimming branches/woodcutting and rope-cutting) is a fine-grain steel at sufficient hardness to avoid or minimize rolling or chipping. I was thinking along the lines of good ol' 1095 at HRC 58-60; but Sandvik's steel is also a good candidate at similar hardness, and they list their 14C28N capable up to 62HRC. Their reputation is built on the purity of their process, and therefore fine grain (read: razor edges). Finer grain also tends to increase toughness (less tendency to chip or otherwise break). And the bonus is, these steels are also very, very easy to sharpen and maintain sharp. Beyond that, I tend to think all the discussion of 110V, M4, M390, S30V or other carbide-heavy steels is probably overthinking and overcomplicating it, by a large margin. Even those steels will still roll or chip, if they're either too soft or a little too brittle; neither of which will be fixed by their heavy carbide content.


David
 
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Lol, you' re right and I knew that was coming as I typed that ealier. I would have no problem carrying a knife with sandvik, except I'm picky and can't find the other features I like on a knife that has it. Put it this way if you took a spydie brad southard and stuck sandvik on it, I'd be happy. I may be happy with it as it is though. I currently have one but its a future hand me down. Another may be in order. If you know of a knife I'm missing, please throw it out there. Im a machinist by trade and work with all kinds of highspeed steels. I know what they can do, and have high expectations. That's another reason why I personally don't think 25 is that steep, when compared to 30. All you're really talking about is 2.5 degrees difference on either side. How many people have looked through a comparator to really see what 2.5 degrees looks like? One thing I know for sure is that if you do use a comparator and ask three different people what a given angle is, you will get three different answers. Usually within 1.5 degrees of each other. That can narrow it even more. Let's be honest here. No one, and I mean no one is dead on with thier angles when they free hand on stones. I don't care what you're system is, or if you're reincarnated Japanese master. But I do know that the angles I put on are never less than 12 a side. I realize everyone's trying to help with regards to the para and I appreciate that. As far as I'm concerned, I already know what the problem is. I'm quite confident with my knowledge, and know all the semantics behind, well everything knife related. So with all respect, I do like a thread that wanders. Just trust me as far as the para goes. Really just looking for first hand usage of the other steels at lower angles, or what knives people have had good luck with, under similar uses as I described. Of course if ya don't think any steel can handle it, that's fine too..........just a sad day though.
 
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