What to expect from D2 steel? (Rant included)

midnight flyer said:
I agree with you on the 440C. I remember when it was "wonder" and "super" steel! I have a Buck 119 that is a miserable hunting knife, but an excellent camp/outdoor utility knife in 440C. Had it for decades, and it has been an excellent performer.

I also have a 40+ year old Browning Folding hunter (claimed by Browning to be hand made at the time) and it is in 440c, and it is an excellent camp/hunting knife. Not pocketable due to its bulk, but the feel in the hand and the sweep of the blade make it a great tool for all around use, but it shines for dismantling an animal such as a deer. All the years of use on animals and the super high polish of the blade is a bit scratched, but not even stained.

Good stuff. Nearly forgotten now, and it is a shame. It's a great, affordable steel for EDC knives. I have a Boker Stockman in 440C that is ground very thin and flat, and it is a favorite carry.

Robert
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Bigfattyt said:
Don't write of 440C.
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I agree with both of you guys.
But I had so many knives (both folders and fixed blades) in "440" that failed on me that I literally cannot force myself to get anything in either 440 or 420.
So I guess that's an issue inside my head.
I know well heat treated 440 is decent.
But I also think of D2 as a better choice for me right now.
Plus I already ordered 2 D2 knives :D
I think D2 will be decent budget steel. I have diamonds and ceramic to sharpen, plus improvised strop out of old belt and diamond polishing paste.
I'm not that bent on my knives being stainless, I'm more concerned about edge retention. As far as toughness goes, it's desireable, but not a main factor because I won't be doing anything crazy with my EDC, especially not doing anything like batoning.
 
Here is the thing, D2 is an overly generic name, and different companies use different variants.

A good example - http://zknives.com/knives/steels/Bohler-Uddeholm/k110.shtml k110 is slightly different, with a much lower possible vanadium %. Instead of a 'proper' 1% like the normal d2 spec, it can go as low as 0.2%

Chinese d2 suffers from the same problem: - http://zknives.com/knives/steels/EST/ytl122.shtml - notice it's spec is only 0.17% v
some Japanese mfgs use dc11 http://zknives.com/knives/steels/Daido/dc11.shtml - same problem

these types of d2 (imho) will not achieve vanadium carbides - which are the key to d2 edge retention


on top of all that - proper heat treatment is going to make a big difference
I would not trust boker to do it right or to use a proper high vanadium (1%) d2 - they have optimized everything for mass production and normally cut corners in order to sell at a low price


imho - you'll get much better value going to s30v - pricing for it (and wide use) has come down to d2 levels
performance wise it has far better edge retention AND toughness (https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/i-tested-the-edge-retention-of-48-steels.1726279/)

let us know what you think of boker d2 after a few months of use? :)
 
dirc said:
Here is the thing, D2 is an overly generic name, and different companies use different variants.

A good example - http://zknives.com/knives/steels/Bohler-Uddeholm/k110.shtml k110 is slightly different, with a much lower possible vanadium %. Instead of a 'proper' 1% like the normal d2 spec, it can go as low as 0.2%

Chinese d2 suffers from the same problem: - http://zknives.com/knives/steels/EST/ytl122.shtml - notice it's spec is only 0.17% v
some Japanese mfgs use dc11 http://zknives.com/knives/steels/Daido/dc11.shtml - same problem

these types of d2 (imho) will not achieve vanadium carbides - which are the key to d2 edge retention


on top of all that - proper heat treatment is going to make a big difference
I would not trust boker to do it right or to use a proper high vanadium (1%) d2 - they have optimized everything for mass production and normally cut corners in order to sell at a low price


imho - you'll get much better value going to s30v - pricing for it (and wide use) has come down to d2 levels
performance wise it has far better edge retention AND toughness (https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/i-tested-the-edge-retention-of-48-steels.1726279/)

let us know what you think of boker d2 after a few months of use? :)
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Cheapest S30V fixed blade here would still cost over the cost of these two.

According to few sources D2 that's used for Manly Patriot has up to 1.1% of Vanadium which is a good content - link of steel chemistry here: http://www.altaspecialsteel.com/DIN-1-2379-AISI-D2-22.html

About Boker - I'm curious about it and there's no way to find it out... I don't have high expectations though.

I like your idea of making review.
I think I'll make a big review in which I'll compare the 2 of these
Legit D2 vs Dodgy D2 :D
 
I did my own research on this and yeah, the D2 used in Manly Patriot has 1.2379 steel which is same composition as AISI D2 meaning it contains 0.7-1.1% Vanadium, and that information is on Manly Canada site. So from other research about 1.2379 - it's usually sitting at at least 0.8% V, often being at 1% but most common being 0.9%.

Manly Canada also stated D2 Manly Patriot to be at around 62HRC which is rather high hardness.

I'm also very interested to see how it compares to Boker, and I consider getting Manly Patriot myself too. I'm mostly interested to see how easy or hard they are to sharpen, and how well do they hold an edge.
 
I just recently got Hiroaki Ohta friction folder in D2 (not much experience on it before) and I have no problem sharpening it with my spyderco ceramic flat stones free hand.

Could be harder if you got thicc blade though (?).
 
https://virgamet.com/x153crmov12-1-2379-aisi-d2-t30402-z160cdv12-tool-steel

According to this site, looking at 1.2379 which was stated at Manly Canada it checks out to one review description, D2 in Manly Patriot has least varitations in Vanadium Content with minimum Vanadium content being the highest. It also has high Max Chromium content, and Carbon Content also seems to vary less than with other D2 steels, and it seems to be kinda lower on average.
More Chromium and Vanadium, and possibly bit less Carbon for Manly Patriot.

I really want one now :D

About Boker, I really wish they were as open about D2 they use, but considering they're made in China, I suppose it's Chinese D2.
 
Smiling said:
About Boker, I really wish they were as open about D2 they use, but considering they're made in China, I suppose it's Chinese D2.
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I agree. Boker used to be such a great company, made a lot of cutlery, and even had a premium line. Now they are a "global manufacturing" company that has their products made wherever they can get the deal they want. I have seen great Bokers made in China, and crap models made in Germany, Solingen marked. Very sad.

To the point, I looked off and on for a couple of years to find out what kind of "440C" was used on a traditional patterned stockman knife made in China by/for Boker. I finally found a phone number for technical support here in the USA, and he told me there was no way to know where the materials came from whether it was the material on the bolsters, the blade stock, or any other part of the knife. He also told me that the knife I had was probably assembled in China from parts from different countries, mostly from China. That was all I ever got.

Since D2 is such a generic term these days, no doubt most companies are buying stock for blades to be forged/stamped/ground from a lot of different sources. At this point, you would probably have to see the delivery truck carrying the metal in it to see where it came from.

Robert
 
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midnight flyer said:
I agree. Boker used to be such a great company, made a lot of cutlery, and even had a premium line. Now they are a "global manufacturing" company that has their products made wherever they can get the deal they want. I have seen great Bokers made in China, and crap models made in German, Solingen marked. Very sad.

To the point, I looked off and on for a couple of years to find out what kind of "440C" was used on a traditional patterned stockman knife made in China. I finally found a phone number for technical support here in the USA, and he told me there was no way to know where the materials came from whether it was the material on the bolsters, the blade stock, or any other part of the knife. He also told me that the knife I had was probably assembled in China from parts from different countries, mostly from China. That was all I ever got.

Since D2 is such a generic term these days, no doubt most companies are buying stock for blades to be forged/stamped/ground from a lot of different sources. At this point, you would probably have to see the delivery truck carrying the metal in it to see where it came from.

Robert

Robert
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I definitley agree.

Found another article:
http://www.otaisteel.com/d2-steel-equivalent-cr12mov-widely-used-worldwide-01/

So, the D2 Manly uses is a real deal, and they sell it for like 50€.

I think I gotta copy my friend again and buy the same knife he bought :D
 
Excuse me for resurrecting this nearly 2 years after this post is up.

I just find it funny because not that long ago, D2 is considered underrated. Now the market is flooded with D2 of all varieties and quality from all price ranges. It is in the place of 440 steels in the 2000s, when 440C was common in the market and ruined the its reputation.

The ones considered lesser than 440C then like AUS-8/8CR14MoV, AEB-L, 420HC variants (there are a lot since it has a wide specification margin), 12C27, etc. are still selling well, some are making a comeback. Nowadays, 440C is barely see used outside of some niche production, or high reputation brands.

The market hasn't moved up. Only the marketing has changed. And manufacturers will sell whatever people the trends are going for. The next budget trend may be the 14C28N, aside from toughness (which is only meaningful for bigger blade imo), it's barely better than 440C overall. Many companies are making good knives out of 14C28N at higher price, but most people will experience the steel from a more budget sector of the market with smaller blade or folders, which it barely use its toughness potential, they are selling of the reputation of better products.

D2 will stay, but it won't shine forever, like the so many old steels on the market.
 
I'm skeptical that all the budget knives being sold as D2 are actually D2 and not a close equivalent. I have no proof and it's just a biased opinion.
With that being said, I would choose real, properly heat treated D2 over any budget stainless steel.
 
Maybe its just me or I'm doing something wrong

In my case I found it to have a very good edge retention but harder and longer to sharpen than steels like s30v or 154 cm for example
Retention was similar to those for me
 
PQGK said:
Maybe its just me or I'm doing something wrong

In my case I found it to have a very good edge retention but harder and longer to sharpen than steels like s30v or 154 cm for example
Retention was similar to those for me
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You don't do anything wrong. That's what tool steels supposed to be.
Tools and bits are made for high wear resistance application, not for the sharpness, so of course they are hard to be sharpen, they have long holding form but necessary not razor sharp. They are generally made into small object but tough shape and therefore the toughness of the steel can be somewhat neglected.
 
Deino said:
You don't do anything wrong. That's what tool steels supposed to be.
Tools and bits are made for high wear resistance application, not for the sharpness, so of course they are hard to be sharpen, they have long holding form but necessary not razor sharp. They are generally made into small object but tough shape and therefore the toughness of the steel can be somewhat neglected.
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Ah I see thanks

I only have 1 D2 knife (Kershaw Rake) but after finally getting it sharp I used a few times and its been safe queen ever since the edge started to dull again
 
Bigfattyt said:
Don't write of 440C.

420HC by Buck is a gem for rust resistance, and absolutely a joy to sharpen. It won't hold an edge as lomg as D2, or 440C, but touches up much faster.

D2 takes longer to sharpen, especially if you have to reset the bevel.

I have entirely reground 4 blades in D2. It is work! Especially if you are trying to regrind by hand, or polish by hand.

The D2 I use is all Queen steel. Holds an edge just fine.

I would add CPM 154 also to your list.

I have also enjoyed ATS34 (you don't see it as much).

Also a cost effective, tough steel to keep your eye out for is AEBL. Tough and super easy to sharpen.
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Pretty new to Queen knives here. How do you compare their 420HC and D2, please ? Their 420HC comparable to Buck's ? Thanks.
 
pnsxyr said:
I always struggled with sharpening D2 until recently, when I purchased diamond stones for my Edge Pro. It's not a steel I ever personally liked sharpening on a SharpMaker. I also will generally finish with fine, polished edges whereas D2 seems to strongly prefer medium, more toothy, which to my understanding is due to its massive carbide sizes. In terms of how hard to sharpen, I subjectively consider it more difficult to achieve great results than with M390 but less difficult than ZDP-189. (Do note that my sharpening experience with D2 is limited to Benchmades and a Spyderco, and obviously the heat treatment and edge geometry will both impact sharpenability.)
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A long-time Yukon outfitter and guide told me he always sharpened his D2 blades with the coarsest hone he had. That edge would just snick through the knee joints of big game.
 
ferider said:
Pretty new to Queen knives here. How do you compare their 420HC and D2, please ? Their 420HC comparable to Buck's ? Thanks.
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I have not used Queens 420hc, only their D2.

I have Buck's 420HC, and it is decent. High toughness steel, very stainless and very easy to get super sharp.

Queens D2 is certainly tougher to sharpen!! But seems to hold an edge longer.
 
The only knife that I have with a D2 blade is an older Queen made slipjoint. I seem to remember buying it in the late 90's or early 2000's and it has seem a far amount of use. I really like the steel, it is easy to sharpen on my Sharpmaker and holds an edge longer that the slip joint knives I have in 1095. I expect the heat treatment played a significant role in the performance of those older Queen D2 slip-joints.

It isn't a supersteel but it does a reasonably good job for my day-to-day cutting needs.
 
I own 5 D2 knives. I sharpen with aluminum oxide whetstones. My experience: Finish on a 1000 stone and then leather strop. Higher grit stones do nothing for me, they make the D2 blade duller. I have tried varying pressure, technique, etc., to no avail.
 
Deino said:
Excuse me for resurrecting this nearly 2 years after this post is up.

I just find it funny because not that long ago, D2 is considered underrated. Now the market is flooded with D2 of all varieties and quality from all price ranges. It is in the place of 440 steels in the 2000s, when 440C was common in the market and ruined the its reputation.

The ones considered lesser than 440C then like AUS-8/8CR14MoV, AEB-L, 420HC variants (there are a lot since it has a wide specification margin), 12C27, etc. are still selling well, some are making a comeback. Nowadays, 440C is barely see used outside of some niche production, or high reputation brands.

The market hasn't moved up. Only the marketing has changed. And manufacturers will sell whatever people the trends are going for. The next budget trend may be the 14C28N, aside from toughness (which is only meaningful for bigger blade imo), it's barely better than 440C overall. Many companies are making good knives out of 14C28N at higher price, but most people will experience the steel from a more budget sector of the market with smaller blade or folders, which it barely use its toughness potential, they are selling of the reputation of better products.

D2 will stay, but it won't shine forever, like the so many old steels on the market.
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There are a few issues here. First, the market isn't flooded with D2 as people sometimes understand it. The reputation for that steel was built by American or other knives using that steel with a reasonably good heat treatment. What has been flooding the market in recent years are mass-produced budget knives made with Chinese D2. There has been some question on the quality, purity, or consistency of that steel. In XRF testing, the vanadium content seems to vary more than it should and is often on the low side. There is also the issue of the mass-production heat treatment. Some companies do better than others but usually, the actual edge retention just won't live up to that reputation.

The latter issue also affects a lot of the 440C we see today. Yes, companies still use 440C. Sometimes, it is used in niche or custom knives that might get a good heat treatment. However, a lot of it gets used in very inexpensive budget knives from companies like Ganzo or QSP where it probably doesn't.

The market has moved up on the budget end but it depends on where you look. While the Chinese-made knives from Kershaw or CRKT might be stuck in the past on steel, lots of Chinese companies are offering better budget steels at competitive prices. Steels like 9Cr18Mov, 14C28N, and even Chinese D2 are usually a good step up from 8Cr13Mov, 5Cr15, 420, etc. There is more that can be said about that but I'll leave you with one other thing.

Toughness isn't just about how easy it is to break your blade. It can also affect your edge. Another issue is grain structure and that helps with steels like 12C27 and 14C28N. The following article may be helpful.

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What is Edge Stability? - Knife Steel Nerds

Thanks to Keith Nix and Benaiah Brabant for becoming Knife Steel Nerds Patreon Supporters! The vote is still open on Patreon for what equipment will be purchased for future research. Edge Stability I got help directly from Roman Landes in writing this article (Thanks Roman!). The content below...
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Chronovore said:
Toughness isn't just about how easy it is to break your blade. It can also affect your edge. Another issue is grain structure and that helps with steels like 12C27 and 14C28N. The following article may be helpful.
Click to expand...

^^^ This. I never worry about breaking a knife. I like tough knife steel because I hate chips. D2 is pretty good that way. I have a few knives in K110, and a couple of Queen in D2. Just make sure you get the real thing.

 
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