What to quench RR spike knives in?

B

Broomhead

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Jan 12, 2012
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I know, I know, RR spike knives will never be a real knife, more a kso than anything. However, I have two that I have made as souvenirs for my daughter and cousin. I want them to be as usable as possible so they can be used as more than a paper weight. My daughter is 9 and my cousin is 14, so these won't be hard use knives and may never even be used, but I'd still like that possibility. So, with that, what should I quench them in to get the best results? I have canola oil, straight water, and water from a salt water pool that is 3100ppm of salt (my math is not working good to make that a percentage). I have used motor oil, but know better than to use that.

Also, after hardening, should I temper them? If so, what temp would be good?

I know this is mostly speculation as no one knows what alloy the spikes are made from. However, I'm doing this knowing it's speculation and that I won't get the best results from these knives. Like I said, they are mostly souvenirs, but I'd like them to be as usable as possible too. For a real knife, I'll stick with the 1084 that I have.

All bashing and "you should use known steel" aside, what say you?
 
Super Quench. It's a brine solution with surfactants that you can make at home. Reportedly you can get low-carbon steel into the mid/high-40's with it. I know a couple people that make RR spike and horseshoe knives with it. They don't claim they'll hold an edge as well as a proper knife, but they're serviceable.
 
Thought about that too, but Shaklee doesn't even list Shaklee Basic "I" on their website to be able to source a local dealer, or a dealer period. Google came up with the other variations of Basic, but not "I". Is there an alternative?
 
Google "super quench". Or just use salt brine. Your salt water is 0.31%. Your brine will be closer to 20%. Practice normalizing on them before quenching. If you have the higher carbon spikes, @ 0.3% they will start to austenize @ 1600 F. For practice try a differential temper on them. The oxide colors will be similar to what you would see on 1084. With luck you will get the edge into the high HRc 30's. I did read a paper where a scientist was able to get 1020 steel into the low HRc 40's using super quench.
 
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Ok, I reposted this topic on Knife Dogs trying to get more perspective/advice. I have just been banned for spam!?! There is no way to contact anyone on that forum. Can someone get me in contact with an Admin there so I can try to clear this up?
 
So just use dishwashing detergent and salt in clean water, it works fine- I'm sure the Shaklee helps but it doesn't make or break the mix.
With all the lovely knives I make, the RR spike knives are often the first to sell, go figure.
I spark test them- the ones they use on curves and switches seem to be a bit higher in carbon and take a bit better edge.
 
I did find a 4yr-old thread on I Forge Iron that said to use unscented Jet Dry or Simple Green in place of the Shaklee.

Thanks for all the help and advice.
 
I've used Dawn dishwashing detergent in the past. You want something that will work as a surfactant.

I'd temper just to be safe, but not a whole lot.
 
I never understood why people think untempered blades will be better than tempered ones. Regardless of the carbon content or quenchant, all blades need a temper.

When you quench any steel, the structure made is BRITTLE MARTENSITE. Now, the word brittle should give folks an idea why we really don't want to keep the knife that way. Tempering will convert this into tempered martensite, which is the desired structure. Tempering starts around 300F and for most carbon steel blades maxes out at 500F. For any blade that is to be used, a temper of 350F to 450F is normal. Temper twice for two hours each time. Dunk the blade in water, or under running water in the sink, to cool it off between the tempers.
 
bladsmth said:
I never understood why people think untempered blades will be better than tempered ones. Regardless of the carbon content or quenchant, all blades need a temper.

When you quench any steel, the structure made is BRITTLE MARTENSITE. Now, the word brittle should give folks an idea why we really don't want to keep the knife that way. Tempering will convert this into tempered martensite, which is the desired structure. Tempering starts around 300F and for most carbon steel blades maxes out at 500F. For any blade that is to be used, a temper of 350F to 450F is normal. Temper twice for two hours each time. Dunk the blade in water, or under running water in the sink, to cool it off between the tempers.
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I had read here and on IFI, I believe, that not tempering a RR spike knife would be ok in order to keep as much hardness as possible. Obviously those individuals were incorrect.

I knew the whole tempering process and steps, I was just unsure of what a good temp would be for these. I'll start on the low end at 350* and see what happens. If need be I can step it up to 400*-450*.


Thank you everyone for your help and advice.
 
What those posts meant was you probably could get away with not tempering a RR spike blade. That would be because the martensite would be a much lower percentage of the blade than one made out of 1084. The blade might not snap in two untempered, but the martensite will be tougher if tempered.

If you want to experiment with this, pound a RR spike out into a 1/4" bar. Cut it in half and HT both pieces in superquench. Temper one at 350F and leave the other as is. Bend test them both and see if the untempered one breaks easier than the tempered one. Let us know how that comes out.
 
What Stacy said. I'd go for 350 to 400 degrees. You're not going to lose much hardness, but you will take out brittleness.
 
bladsmth said:
If you want to experiment with this, pound a RR spike out into a 1/4" bar. Cut it in half and HT both pieces in superquench. Temper one at 350F and leave the other as is. Bend test them both and see if the untempered one breaks easier than the tempered one. Let us know how that comes out.
Click to expand...

This shall be the first project on my DIY anvil. It'll be good practice. Now, where can I buy/find some spare time? Lol.
 
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