What to Say to the Police?

[Confederate]

Okay, so it's legal to carry a 5- or 6-inch bladed folding knife. Or maybe it isn't, but if a police officer finds one on you (for whatever reason), what are their options in most cases? Some are asked why they carry such knives, and if they say "tool," the cop might notice that the blade is bright and shiny and doesn't look like a tool. Of course if one points that out and implies it may be a weapon (which is illegal if you're carrying it for that reason in Maryland), and you say, "Well, there's no blood or gore on it, either," you might find yourself in a difficult situation.

I keep my knife either in a pouch or in my hip pocket, so it's no real problem, but during the sniper shootings in my area they were searching anyone for any reason. Someone on this website said they were stopped by an officer as he was going down the steps in a subway. Others may get searched in a traffic stop.

It's been awhile since I asked, so I'm asking if anyone has any new (or even any old) stories about encounters with the law. How did you handle them? If you're an LEO, how do you handle situations where someone you're searching has a large folder?

 

[powernoodle]

My approach is to know the law intimately, and to comply with it. If questioned by the police on this or any other matter, I would be very courteous and deferential. But I would also not agree with an officer's assertion that I was in violation of the law if that were not the case. Eventually, one must grow a spine - even when (or especially when) dealing with the police. I hope that I have grown one.

So for me it all centers on knowing the law and complying with it. There is no reason to fear the police. All they can do is arrest you. JMO.


:thumbup:

 

[JD Mandrell]

There is a reason why it's called a "right to remain silent".

 

[pogo]

The last time I checked it was 4 inches in Mo. That is State law. Many municipalaties have a 3-3 1/2 inch blade carry. Hard to figure why State law dosn't overide them? As long as you are polite the LEO might have you lock it in the trunk of your car. Goodness help you if you have outstanding Warrents though!

 

[rifon2]

My approach is to know the law intimately, and to comply with it. If questioned by the police on this or any other matter, I would be very courteous and deferential. But I would also not agree with an officer's assertion that I was in violation of the law if that were not the case. Eventually, one must grow a spine - even when (or especially when) dealing with the police. I hope that I have grown one.

So for me it all centers on knowing the law and complying with it. There is no reason to fear the police. All they can do is arrest you. JMO.


:thumbup:

There are some state statutes re: knives that are just about impossible to comply with - because the statutes are overbroad or overly vague.

Consider for example New Jersey, or New York, where it's illegal to possess a "dangerous knife". And there's no definition in the statute of what constitutes a "dangerous knife".

Yes, knowing the law and complying with it is great advice, and you'd better be carrying nothing more than a SAK Classic or something similar.

Getting arrested is not a small matter, IMO.

 

[SDS]

City ordinance may be more restrictive, but not less restrictive, than state statute. That is why many municipalities have a shorter blade length requirement.

As to what to say, just be honest. Most of us don't carry knives as weapons. They are just tools that we use. Why do I carry a knife? To cut stuff. I like knives.

That said, don't be a jerk or get sarcastic with an officer. Right or wrong a trip to jail is still a trip to jail. Most officers are reasonable people. Just like any other group of people there are jerks among the ranks too and some officers are pretty badge heavy. Be reasonable with them and most of the time they will return the courtesy.

SDS

 

[MORIMOTOM]

If you're an LEO, how do you handle situations where someone you're searching has a large folder?

depends.

there are some places any knife may be illegal. in these instances, there is some discretion on whether or not to arrest. the person's attitude and level of cooperation go a long way, circumstances notwithstanding.

just a couple examples:

1. i arrest someone for burglary, which is a felony. among various items i find an illegal knife. i would likely ad-charge the knife.

2. i stop a pedestrian for a minor violation, perhaps a traffic violation or other infraction. they tell me they have a pocket knife. i would conduct a search incident to arrest, which the traffic stop actually is. the knife turns out to be illegal.

the person is cooperative, and doesn't attempt to mitigate the violation (these aren't my pants) or plead ignorance (i forgot it was there). i would probably not arrest for the knife, and would cite for the original violation, if anything. i would counsel regarding the carrying of an illegal item. counsel/release is only a viable option when i believe the person will behave appropriately in the future.


yes, you can invoke your right to remain silent, if you have been arrested. but you may want to provide some level of cooperation before that happens, while basic investigatory questions are posed.

miranda does not cover everything, and does not preclude answering some questions, ie name, dob, address, etc. if you want to remain silent the whole time, be aware of where miranda applies and does not.

 

[thermocline]

Hi Powernoodle,

It's not that we don't want to assert our rights. It's simply that a lot of us can't afford to. Yes, it's horrendous.

I'm going to use a little hyperbole to make a point. Suppose you had went into engineering rather than law. Suppose some police officer finds you, Mr. Engineer, carrying a legal knife. He defines it as an illegal knife and puts charges against you.

OK, now you need bail money. Your boss discovers you've been arrested on a weapons violation. Sorry, we love your work, but HR says we can't take the chance, and in light of the weapons violation, they want to review your security clearance. Now you need bail money and a new job. Oops, you have pending charges against you for pulling a knife on a cop? Gee, thanks for coming in.

Your wife is less than thrilled about you "irresponsibly" getting arrested over a pocketknife. You have no employment prospects. Now you show up in court. Well, gee, Mr. Powernoodle, esq., how much do you charge to throw on a suit and step into a courtroom? The cop gets on the stand and says "That divorced, unemployed bum was waving a knife around..."

Let's put a happy ending on this fairy tale. Let's say the judge pulls out his own Case Peanut from under his robes and tells the officer to go pound sand. Hooray, we won, and all it cost was $10,000 and a career.

BTW, the cop that arrested you is outside writing you a parking ticket, even though you're within the lines.

Can you see why some of us might choose to carry nothing more threatening than a Spyderco Ladybug? This is why I carry a Dragonfly and not a Military.

 

[SDS]

Thermocline, although you made your point, I think you may have done so with quite a dramatic flair. Could such a scenario happen? Certainly. But most likely it would be seen in a Hollywood film.


Powernoodle (it's tough to have a serious conversation with a name like that in it) makes a valid point. We must stand up for our rights. There are right ways and wrong ways to do it of course. Being respectful and courteous goes a long ways towards a happy ending. Beligerence and attitude will most likely not work out well for you whether you were right or wrong.

SDS

 

[Tripton]

I just live in an area that is knife friendly.


You want to live in a big city with oppressive laws, more power to you.


As long as I dont conceal a knife with a blade longer than 5 inches...or conceal a switchblade, I am legal and fine...here.

If a cop is wrong, show up in court and plead. I am not going to stop doing LEGAL things just because of fear of unlawful prosecution.




To the OP...you carry 6 inch folders? For what??

 

[TemplarKnight21c]

I'm just nice to the cops, and only mention it if it seems relevant, which it usually isn't. Don't try to hide your knife, but don't draw attention to it either. And for Chrissakes, don't reach for it.

 

[Confederate]

Yes, you guys make good points. From a practical standpoint, though, I have a difficult time with how a 5-inch knife is any worse than a 4-inch. A person can misuse either. The law also is horribly inconsistent. For example, a switchblade is in many places illegal while a Cold Steel Pro-Lite that opens every bit as quickly and is stronger is okay. Yet most police officers react far more negatively to switchblades (which I had as toys as a kid). I was more likely to hurt myself with my Boy Scout knife because it's one I actually used and it wasn't a toy. (I recall cutting wood one day and the blade stuck in the wood. When I tried to extract it, the blade closed on my hand and cut me badly. I've never cared for slipjoint knives since, even though I realize I wasn't handling it correctly.)

Of all the animals on the Earth, human beings are the only ones that God didn't give any viable means of self defense to. Without animal furs and manmade fabrics, we couldn't live in any environs; and the second we sat down and began to chip away at stones to make weapons, some yo-yo came along and banned them. I began carrying a Cold Steel Gunsite 5-incher after two neighborhood dogs came after me in tandem. I realized that I was virtually defenseless. Then I realized that that's how government wants us. They armed themselves adequately, I noticed, but they preferred for us to use 911.

If I were stopped by a police officer, I agree with the advice of not admitting any wrong doing. A police officer will try to get someone to incriminate themselves verbally, which is why sometimes one should not be too forthcoming.

Still, when a police officer asks if you have any weapon on you, and you have a 3-inch folder, what's the correct answer? The law in my area forbids the carrying of weapons and you can carry any size knife as long as it's not intended as a weapon or for self defense. At what point does something become a weapon?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Still, when a police officer asks if you have any weapon on you, and you have a 3-inch folder, what's the correct answer? The law in my area forbids the carrying of weapons and you can carry any size knife as long as it's not intended as a weapon or for self defense. At what point does something become a weapon?

intent is everything. if you say its a weapon, then it is. if you brandish it toward someone, its a weapon.

carry method could also make a knife a weapon. neck knives, for example, are generally designed for rapid deployment. they are also kept in a place not necessarily readily searched. there is little other practical purpose for neck carry.

if an officer asks if you have a weapon, one reasonable answer is, "no, but i have a folding knife in my pocket".

"weapon" is an ambiguous term. i generally ask if there is anything i need to know about, or anything that will stick or poke me.


perception shapes much of our world. we here may know autos are not the fastest deploying knives out there, but most wouldn't. and because there are a handful of faster deploying knives does not negate the quickness of an auto, nor will those knives cause a revisitation of the validity of the law.

it is my opinion that once knives like the eki waved models and assisted openers become "mainstream" items, they will be included in many of the switchblade laws. i hope not, but we'll see.

ultimately, if there is any question in your mind about whether your knife is illegal, you are better off not carrying it.

 

[thermocline]

Could such a scenario happen? Certainly. But most likely it would be seen in a Hollywood film.

SDS

Oh, and I freely admit to exagerrating for effect. But honestly, I get nervous when people argue that the officer will exercise good discretion.

When I was 17, broke, wearing jeans and a t-shirt and driving a rusted-out shell of a car, police officers tended to bark orders laced with profanity in my direction. When I was written a ticket for 10 mph over at 20 years of age, it came with a profanity-laced tirade.

When I was 40, driving a Honda and wearing a tie, I got the same ticket with no profanity. When I was 60, with grey hair over an expensive suit driving an Acura, I got the ticket with a "Have a nice day, Sir."

My behavior was the same each time, the same "yes sir, no sir, no excuse sir" routine that's been drilled into my head since as long as I can remember. I honestly believe that for too many officers, discretion hinges on how quickly they believe you can reach your attorney on speed-dial.

My blue-collar upbringing chokes horribly on that, and I'd really prefer the Law, not the officer, make the call.

 

[Tripton]

I'd really prefer the Law, not the officer, make the call.

Nicely stated.



That would make a good sig line.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Nicely stated.



That would make a good sig line.

its just rhetoric, and doesn't really mean anything.

laws only work because people accept them and police enforce them.

if you remove discretion from police work, then everyone gets tickets for every traffic violation. everyone gets arrested for every penal, municipal, or county code violation. is that really where you want to live and what you want your sig line to say?

 

[orthogonal1]

its just rhetoric, and doesn't really mean anything.

laws only work because people accept them and police enforce them.

if you remove discretion from police work, then everyone gets tickets for every traffic violation. everyone gets arrested for every penal, municipal, or county code violation. is that really where you want to live and what you want your sig line to say?

Sure would like to live there.

That way we would actually get rid of the apparently unlimited number of purely stupid laws.

If a law is used only as a "last resort" or "add-on" simply because some enforcement official could not find any "legit" infraction, then the law is stupid and should be stricken.

 

[thermocline]

its just rhetoric, and doesn't really mean anything.

laws only work because people accept them and police enforce them.

if you remove discretion from police work, then everyone gets tickets for every traffic violation. everyone gets arrested for every penal, municipal, or county code violation. is that really where you want to live and what you want your sig line to say?

You're advocating that unreasonably restrictive laws should be on the books, and you be allowed to dole out permissiveness and mercy as you see fit. The effect of this is that you, officer, get to decide the law.

I believe that reasonable laws should be on the books, and the enforcement of those laws be transparent and above board. I want loose laws that are evenly enforced. I don't want the wealthy being given consideration, while the poor go to fill quotas.

I've seen it from both sides in my life, and it's evenly disgusting at 17 and 67. By the way, everyone from Thomas Jefferson to George Orwell agrees with me. But hey, equal before the law is all just rhetoric, isn't it?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

You're advocating that unreasonably restrictive laws should be on the books, and you be allowed to dole out permissiveness and mercy as you see fit. The effect of this is that you, officer, get to decide the law.

nowhere, at any time have i advocated this. that's absurd.

i don't decide the law. but i can decide who i arrest or ticket.

I believe that reasonable laws should be on the books, and the enforcement of those laws be transparent and above board. I want loose laws that are evenly enforced. I don't want the wealthy being given consideration, while the poor go to fill quotas.

first, there are no quotas that i am aware of. pure urban legend.

explain how a "loose" law can be evenly enforced? that makes no sense.

you are wandering in to irrelevance with your statements.

I've seen it from both sides in my life, and it's evenly disgusting at 17 and 67. By the way, everyone from Thomas Jefferson to George Orwell agrees with me. But hey, equal before the law is all just rhetoric, isn't it?

what the heck are you talking about?

the law is abstract. it takes actual people to enforce it. actual people must obey it or accept consequences.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Sure would like to live there.

That way we would actually get rid of the apparently unlimited number of purely stupid laws.

If a law is used only as a "last resort" or "add-on" simply because some enforcement official could not find any "legit" infraction, then the law is stupid and should be stricken.

cite an expample.

define: last resort, add-on, legit, as you see these terms.