What to Say to the Police?

[SAKowner]

Catch-all laws as well as all non-specific laws effectively reverse the situation. In effect, they postulate that the government/police/bureaucrat/etc... GRANT rights to the people, and everything outside of that is illegal, by virtue of legal vagueness that criminalize non-compliance. This way, the burden of determining the legality of many actions falls solely to the law enforcement personnel.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the rise of the prison-industrial complex?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison-industrial_complex

 

[MORIMOTOM]

That's the problem.

A "catch-all" is a legal equivalent of a computer "exploit"... a bug that allows the user to obtain elevated privileges without permission. The very existence of these laws is an affront to any "freedom" within our society as defined by the Constitution.

Catch-all laws as well as all non-specific laws effectively reverse the situation. In effect, they postulate that the government/police/bureaucrat/etc... GRANT rights to the people, and everything outside of that is illegal, by virtue of legal vagueness that criminalize non-compliance. This way, the burden of determining the legality of many actions falls solely to the law enforcement personnel.

That's why most threads in this section of the forum deal with the question: "how can I make sure that this [object] is legal?".

i think you take this a little overboard.

for example, in ca there is what is called the basic speed law. the speed is not specified, but the language of the law is meant to include dangerous acts committed by a driver not otherwise covered in the vehicle code. hence, unsafe speed.

i see all the threads here, however many people ask without actually looking. they come here out of convenience.

there are those who dont understand the verbage, and i (we) attempt to clarify.

ive said this many times, if any law becomes too specific, it is unenforceable. the reverse is also true. there are some laws referred to as "catch alls" that are poorly written, but it would be a mistake to think all are.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

i have mostly negative experience with cops.
many bad situations where " young, underdeveloped, kids " that were beaten up in school suddenly turn cop and have all the authorithy they never had before.
and now flex their muscles.
i lived in Miami once, where the chief of police jumped of a building because it came out he was comitting rape to arrested guys, drug sales, gun trafficking...extortion etc.
Miami is tough, though. i have met many crooked cops along the way...that thought they are untouchable because they carry a badge.
my girlfriends neighbor.....1 miles away....on his 25 acres farm...
shoots fully automatic weapons all weekend long. untouched.
not that i dont like it !

but he would arrest you for carrying a Benchmade 3550.
personally, when i carry an opening assisted knife, i also carry a print out of the law that explains its an open assist knife....not an automatic.
you know why ? a cop told me...i am the law, if i say thats automatic, its automatic !- and you are going to jail for it !!!!!!

Catch-all laws as well as all non-specific laws effectively reverse the situation. In effect, they postulate that the government/police/bureaucrat/etc... GRANT rights to the people, and everything outside of that is illegal, by virtue of legal vagueness that criminalize non-compliance. This way, the burden of determining the legality of many actions falls solely to the law enforcement personnel.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the rise of the prison-industrial complex?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison-industrial_complex

thx for two completely useless posts with no pertinent information.

save it for whine and cheese.

 

[KruppStahl]

you are welcome, Morimotom !

thanks to the few other members that gave me a thumbs up on my post.

of course if youre a cop you dont like to hear those things....

 

[eventer289]

neck knives, for example, are generally designed for rapid deployment. they are also kept in a place not necessarily readily searched. there is little other practical purpose for neck carry.

My experience with neck knives is that they are far less easy to deploy than a pocket folder. If I carry a neck knife under my shirt it takes much more time to get it out than something out of my pocket.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

you are welcome, Morimotom !

thanks to the few other members that gave me a thumbs up on my post.

of course if youre a cop you dont like to hear those things....

ok, so your just a newbie troll.

and i certainly dont see any "thumbs up". don't presume to know anything about me or what i want to read. you want to whine, start your own thread.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

My experience with neck knives is that they are far less easy to deploy than a pocket folder. If I carry a neck knife under my shirt it takes much more time to get it out than something out of my pocket.

that may be, and im no fan of neck knives either. though i find them much faster and draw more reliable than removing a folder and opening it. you get a full grip immediately, and there is no readjustment to attain a proper grip as with a folder.

but it would be very difficult to argue any other practical application for such carry.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

How about carrying a necker in a mercharness? Wouldn't that be easier access?

 

[glistam]

How about carrying a necker in a mercharness? Wouldn't that be easier access?

I think he meant carrying for "weapon purposes" as opposed to utilitarian. There's no need to have fast draw so you can cut that piece of string. And the idea is that necker or mercharness gives the appearance to an observer that the knife is being carried as a weapon. However, that's only an issue when there is discretion needed about the legality of the knife. If the knife itself falls within a specifically-named exemption, the manner of carry is irrelevant. Little known fact is that you can carry a common folder this way too, provided you make or have made a kydex holder for it.

I find a mercharness style superior to a neck knife in many ways, but that's another discussion

 

[hlee]

that may be, and im no fan of neck knives either. though i find them much faster and draw more reliable than removing a folder and opening it. you get a full grip immediately, and there is no readjustment to attain a proper grip as with a folder.

but it would be very difficult to argue any other practical application for such carry.

Carrying a neck knife in cold weather allows you to keep it under your coat, where the handle can stay at a comfortable temperature for use- while being more accessible than in a pocket. I prefer neck carry when I am deer hunting for this reason, as gutting a deer wearing a heavy glove is a nonstarter for me. And, grabbing a knife that is at ambient temperature in December is less than comfortable with bare hands in many places not SoCal.

If you're not doing anything wrong then you should have no reason to fear the police. You can take this as an endorsement or an indictment of police. Your choice.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Carrying a neck knife in cold weather allows you to keep it under your coat, where the handle can stay at a comfortable temperature for use- while being more accessible than in a pocket. I prefer neck carry when I am deer hunting for this reason, as gutting a deer wearing a heavy glove is a nonstarter for me. And, grabbing a knife that is at ambient temperature in December is less than comfortable with bare hands in many places not SoCal.

If you're not doing anything wrong then you should have no reason to fear the police. You can take this as an endorsement or an indictment of police. Your choice.

having found a personal exception to the general idea of neck carry does not affect the initial design, marketing, and intentions of such systems.

were this carry method to become commonly accepted among hunters/sportsman, perhaps a legal argument could be made under your described circumstances. as it stands, you are likely the exception to the rule, so to speak.

works for you, and that's great, so long as such concealed carry is not in violation of your local laws.

 

[zenheretic]

having found a personal exception to the general idea of neck carry does not affect the initial design, marketing, and intentions of such systems.

were this carry method to become commonly accepted among hunters/sportsman, perhaps a legal argument could be made under your described circumstances. as it stands, you are likely the exception to the rule, so to speak.

works for you, and that's great, so long as such concealed carry is not in violation of your local laws.

Marketing vs reality. Under the shirt neck carry is only slightly more accesible than those t-shirts that have a little pocket for a "deep undercover" backup guns. Someone rifling under their shirt for either is an open invite for trap and pound. Neck carry is much better suited for backwoods work.

=====

Always fun to watch someone trying to argue to remove a policeman's discretion. They always reveal their deep rooted animosity towards LEOs as well as forget they are arguing for "zero-tolerance" and all the stupidity that comes in its wake.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Marketing vs reality. Under the shirt neck carry is only slightly more accesible than those t-shirts that have a little pocket for a "deep undercover" backup guns. Someone rifling under their shirt for either is an open invite for trap and pound. Neck carry is much better suited for backwoods work.

again, that may be our personal experience. but that has little bearing on a lawmakers perception (or people's in general), especially if it is marketed for a specific purpose. i dont find neck carry suited for anything.

=====

Always fun to watch someone trying to argue to remove a policeman's discretion. They always reveal their deep rooted animosity towards LEOs as well as forget they are arguing for "zero-tolerance" and all the stupidity that comes in its wake.

comes with an emotional response and failure to exercise mental editing. to his credit, i think thermocline realized this, and leveled his head.

 

[hlee]

were this carry method to become commonly accepted among hunters/sportsman, perhaps a legal argument could be made under your described circumstances. as it stands, you are likely the exception to the rule, so to speak.

works for you, and that's great, so long as such concealed carry is not in violation of your local laws.

The idea of neck carry in cold weather was brought to my attention by a forum member in the W&SS forum (I forget who)- whom either lived, was from, or spent significant time in Scandinavia. It was my impression from his post that neck carry was very common for outdoorsmen in these regions, at least during cold weather.

 

[TOM1960]

My experience with neck knives is that they are far less easy to deploy than a pocket folder. If I carry a neck knife under my shirt it takes much more time to get it out than something out of my pocket.

The only time that a neck knife would have any real advantage over a pocket or belt-carried folder would be if you are fishing from a canoe or kayak. I watched a guy launch a Wilderness Systems "Pungo" kayak (about 9' long) to begin a morning of lake fishing last summer. He had his fishing knife suspended from a lanyard around his neck. Good idea, I thought. Less moving and twisting of the body if he has to reach the knife quickly.

 

[glistam]

The only time that a neck knife would have any real advantage over a pocket or belt-carried folder would be if you are fishing from a canoe or kayak. I watched a guy launch a Wilderness Systems "Pungo" kayak (about 9' long) to begin a morning of lake fishing last summer. He had his fishing knife suspended from a lanyard around his neck. Good idea, I thought. Less moving and twisting of the body if he has to reach the knife quickly.

I think the point here is actually quite straightforward: If your hunting, fishing, or otherwise doing lawful work, let's face it, nobody is gonna bother you. If you getting in a fist fight at a bar downtown or skulking around at 2:00am outside the local electronics store, that's a whole other matter.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I think the point here is actually quite straightforward: If your hunting, fishing, or otherwise doing lawful work, let's face it, nobody is gonna bother you. If you getting in a fist fight at a bar downtown or skulking around at 2:00am outside the local electronics store, that's a whole other matter.

thx. a distinction i was about to make.

the majority of laws i am aware of have an exception for lawful recreation and/or work.

being in the woods would be different than being in the grocery store.

 

[Confederate]

The attitude towards the police varies around the country and it's most likely due to the fact that police attitudes vary. Back in the late 70s, many cops in rural areas would try to size up situations and go on common sense. If they found someone carrying a knife and he was nicely dressed and didn't have a violent history, it was a no brainer.

In the situation with the Arizona police and the guy with the Jennings .22 pistol, it was clear that the gun had been there a long time and hadn't been used. Maybe it had fallen out of someone's shooting bag years earlier, but it had no clip, there was no ammunition, the man was dressed well, respectful and had no priors.

The idea that a 4-inch bladed knife is worse than a 3-inch, or that the blade does or doesn't look used is immaterial. It's the guy with the knife that the police should be concerned with. Our national leaders set a horrible example by obeying only the laws they want to obey and ignoring others entirely (like immigration). But if we, as citizens, try that, we'll find ourselves in jail.

I agree that giving police the latitude to charge is probably advisable, unless, of course, the police force is corrupted. I'm still incensed that the police would come into communities in New Orleans, knock on peoples' doors, take their firearms without so much as a writ, and then store them in blue bins to rust and corrode. Then when ordered to return the lawful property, they ignore the courts. Thousands of people lost their prized firearms, while others had them damaged. It's not unheard of for cops to deface confiscated firearms, returning them in two or more pieces, scratched and otherwise damaged.

When I'm stopped by LEOs, I'm respectful and cooperative, but based on many stories I'm hearing about in the media, there are certain parts of the country where I think I would dread a run in. There seems to be an ever-growing trend against people having any sort of tool or device that can be used for self defense, and the police seem to be following that lead. That's why I posted this question in the first place. The ancillary discussions posted here are only cause for more worry.

 

[mercop]

When most police get on the job they imagine they will be protecting the good from the evil. You learn pretty fast that is not the case. I have been working in Hillbilly Heights & the Ghetto for over a decade and I have never worked an assault where a citizen has protected themselves against a criminal. Most of the time we have volunteers not victims and one goof vs another.
Most people who stay away from stupid places, things and people will never be the victim of criminal violence. Of course many have to live in bad places or at least work in them. Some things in this post may upset people but they are true in the eyes of the police and may help you out in the end.
When the police respond to the call after you have just defended yourself understand that whether it is a traffic stop or an assault, to a patrolman a job is a job. He wants to get it over and done with and get on to the next one so he can go home. The idea is to make your case easy for him to work without giving up your rights. Here are some ideas and random thoughts. I include these in all my classes.
· Be the first to report the incident. Maybe it was your robbers first time doing it and you kicked his ass. He calls the police and they find you. You try explaining how you were the victim. The cop sees your cell phone and wants to know why you did not call first.
· If you used a weapon, tell the officer even if he does not ask for it that you wish to submit if for evidence. If he refuses then at least you can say that you offered.
· Expect to be asked if you have been drinking or have taken drugs whether they are prescription or street. This will have a massive impact on how the officer sees you. Be truthful. The first time you lie about something it is going to make any problem worse.
· If he asks you if you have any weapons DO NOT REACH FOR THEM. He will tell you what he wants you to do.
· Have state issued photo identification. Do not use a check cashing card or Dept of Corrections ID card. I have to include it because it happens. Unless you live in a very urban area most adults have a drivers license. This may be a shocker but many people who anticipate police contact do not carry photo identification. All of a sudden you have a nice tactical folder and a Surefire in your pocket but no ID. That seems a tad unusual.
· If he asks you whether or not you have been arrested BE HONEST. He can find this out with your name and date of birth. It is not uncommon for both the victim and bad guy to end up being wanted. That is why we ask.
· Do not answer your cell phone while talking to the police. #1 it is rude and #2 it is an officer safety issue when people start showing up at the scene. It happens.
· Do not interrupt the officer. Do not try to yell over the top of him. If the other side of the altercation is yelling at the officer stay quite. He will want to give them all of his attention and that is better for you.
· DO NOT TOUCH THE POLICE all too often people want to touch the officer to show them what happened. We don’t like to be touched.
· The officer does not care if you have a friend on the police force. And no he does not know whomever it is that you want to ask him if he knows. All cops do not know each other.
· If you have friends present make sure they keep their mouths shut. He will get to them and ask them what happened.
· If you know whom he works for and his rank, address him that way. Call a deputy a deputy and a trooper a trooper. If you don’t know stick with SIR. We notice that.
· If you are in a car turn the music OFF.
· Most police are not weapons people. Don’t try to chat about the gun, flashlight or knife he is carrying. We call those people squirrels.
· Under stress we all revert back to acting like kids and getting our story in first. You can see this when a cop pulls up to a fender bender and both people run up to him talking a mile minute. Be the one to hang back and answer only the questions he asks you.
· If you are involved in a serious situation such as deadly force, give the officer your name, DOB etc and a brief idea of what happened. Chances are that due to the adrenaline dump you will fell sick to your stomach and have some pain in your chest. You may have shit or pissed you pants. Don’t be afraid to tell the officer that you want an ambulance. That will get you away from the scene to a safe place where you can process what happened and contact an attorney. The officer will come to the hospital when he clears the scene.
· If at the scene you decide to just tell the officer “I am not saying anything until I see my lawyer” chances are that in the initial report you will be the complaintant and not the victim. And trust me you want to be the victim. You can’t have complaintant without complain. A lot of what happens with the case depends on the officer’s initial report. It will be reviewed by the detectives and states attorney. The more he likes you the better.
· Be sure to get the officer name, card or at least the Common Complaint / Incident Report number assigned to the case so that you can be educated when contacting the agency in reference to your case.
· Thank the officer. That one is really up to you. If he was good to you then do it. If you take some of this advice chances are he will be.

Understand that I don’t think the police are any better than anyone else as far as how they should treat people. Personally many of my closest friends are not cops. The way the world is and the way we think it should be are two different things. Understanding how the police view you has a lot to do with your survival after you survive the street.

 

[just10minreader]

Couple of things I want to add, in the case of fender/benders:

- don't get animated, talk with your mouth not with your hands, remain calm.

- if the LEO talks with other party in language you don't understand, ask for supervisor/have bystanders wait (for all you know LEO/other are cousins)

- if the LEO seems to know the other person, especially if they're family, ask for a supervisor and get any witnesses around to wait with you for the supervisor. Bystanders can really help in this type situation to keep everyone honest and keep it civilized.