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Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
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What will we do?
- Thread starter Keith Montgomery
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Selecting ivory can be tricky, so I don't like to buy it without inspecting it myself and only feel comfortable in having ivory on knives from makers that I believe are familiar with how to select it, store it, and work it.
The make-up/differences between elephant, walrus and mammoth ivory are well known, however the differences between mammoth and mastodon seem not to be as clear depending on who you speak with.
Anyone care to elaborate on mammoth vs mastodon?
The make-up/differences between elephant, walrus and mammoth ivory are well known, however the differences between mammoth and mastodon seem not to be as clear depending on who you speak with.
Anyone care to elaborate on mammoth vs mastodon?
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I have found a few suppliers that I trust to pick excellent ivory for me. It would be nice to inspect it myself, but in the end, I would still end up purchasing based on the expert advice of the person selling it to me.
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Keith - I'm not talking about walrus taken directly from the beast, but harvested legally on beaches, etc. I don't know how ancient the currently available (legal) walrus is, but I don't see how one could discriminate between a tusk fallen 100 years ago, and one fallen last week.
This model has been discontinued and pieces will only be available within the limits of the current inventory.
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I'm a big fan of Stag, however with the type of Knives I make, especially the larger Loveless Big Bear Types, It is much more difficult to find than any of the normally available Ivories. some times I wish I make the round tang type of knives so popular here. It's so much easier to find stag for the round tang.
Darn it!
Darn it!
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I remember in the late 80's a number of items became scarce and expensive. Black lip pearl, sambar stag and of course legal elephant ivory.
I began to collect materials as well as knives and I am glad I did. I was able to supply the makers from whom I ordered knives with my handle material.I also collected stainless damascus as it was very hard to come by in those days.
When I would visit a show I would spend much time buying materials and it was also a good investment. Often I would trade some materials to makers to cover knife costs and the material only increased in value.
Ivory, both mammoth and modern, has a unique feel and look to it and I can think of no material which can replace it.
I remember buying nice mammoth slabs in the mid 80's for $25-$35 per set.
Invest in your own small stockpile....you won't be sorry.
I began to collect materials as well as knives and I am glad I did. I was able to supply the makers from whom I ordered knives with my handle material.I also collected stainless damascus as it was very hard to come by in those days.
When I would visit a show I would spend much time buying materials and it was also a good investment. Often I would trade some materials to makers to cover knife costs and the material only increased in value.
Ivory, both mammoth and modern, has a unique feel and look to it and I can think of no material which can replace it.
I remember buying nice mammoth slabs in the mid 80's for $25-$35 per set.
Invest in your own small stockpile....you won't be sorry.
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I guess I'm just too particular about color/texture/pattern etc to allow someone to choose for me. And besides, digging through the boxes is part of the fun.
Kind of like mining it yourself. 
This model has been discontinued and pieces will only be available within the limits of the current inventory.
Do you think we will ever exhaust the supply of mammoth/mastodon in the foreseeable future?
Or will demand just drive technology to develop more advanced ways to find/harvest it?
My father has been digging/collecting US Civil War artifacts for 50 years in the same half dozen Virginia battlefields. As the metal detectors become more sophisticated it allows him to find pieces that had previously gone un-detected. He makes it seem that the supply is inexhaustible.
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I know i rambled a bit before, but I have a Question for you guys- just to get a feel of how you think.
I saw two full sized mammoth tusks at Blade 2007. One was $6000 the other, i think $9000, being sold by a Russian outfit. I myself, could never justify chopping these up for scales, (for profit).. they were stunning, entact!
So my question, are most of the scales we see already cut made out of broken fragments found?...
Is there any thought given to keeping nice examples of tusks from the "meat grinder" so to speak?
David
I saw two full sized mammoth tusks at Blade 2007. One was $6000 the other, i think $9000, being sold by a Russian outfit. I myself, could never justify chopping these up for scales, (for profit).. they were stunning, entact!
So my question, are most of the scales we see already cut made out of broken fragments found?...
Is there any thought given to keeping nice examples of tusks from the "meat grinder" so to speak?
David
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David, most of the nice, whole mammoth tusks are not cut, but are restored and sold for display. Most of the scales are from pieces of tusks. But I know a few nice tusks have and are being cut, mainly by the Chinese, for carvings and figurines. They are buying most of the mammoth coming out of Siberia.
Kevin, I don't think we'll see an end to fossil mammoth ivory anytime soon, but it will become more rare. Good fossil walrus is becoming more dificult to find each year.
I'm planning not to run out
Kevin, I don't think we'll see an end to fossil mammoth ivory anytime soon, but it will become more rare. Good fossil walrus is becoming more dificult to find each year.
I'm planning not to run out
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Good question David, so I will give my assumption and then hope some experts will step in.
From what I have seen, I assume most handle slabs come from partial tusk. I have most often seen un-processed sections/fragments ranging from 12" to 30" or so for sale to makers who want to do their own cutting. I would also assume it most often comes from the earth/sea in various fragments.
I would hope the better whole tusk are preserved as such. I have always wanted to buy one of these examples to display along with my collection, however at the prices that are usually being ask, one has to wonder it the owner really wants to sell them.
Another way to possibly look at it is that so many more people are able to enjoy/appreciate this ivory by it being utilized in knife handles/art objects than if only left whole or larger fragments.
From what I have seen, I assume most handle slabs come from partial tusk. I have most often seen un-processed sections/fragments ranging from 12" to 30" or so for sale to makers who want to do their own cutting. I would also assume it most often comes from the earth/sea in various fragments.
I would hope the better whole tusk are preserved as such. I have always wanted to buy one of these examples to display along with my collection, however at the prices that are usually being ask, one has to wonder it the owner really wants to sell them.
Another way to possibly look at it is that so many more people are able to enjoy/appreciate this ivory by it being utilized in knife handles/art objects than if only left whole or larger fragments.
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It's hard to lament the price of ivory, when my preferred handle material is still available--primo stag stained amber or chocolate. The 2 Loveless knives on the latest Dave Ellis thread is what I'm talking about.
One well known supplier told me recently that he doubts that India will ever export Sambar stag again, but Culpepper apparently has a reliable source of Mongolian Sambar stag (isn't everything made in China?) that is just as good (so they insist) as Indian stag except that the antlers are a little smaller, meaning the jumbo pieces will be rarer. Their top grade and largest size cost $63 per set, natural OR ambered.
The only time I might not select stag is when weight is a consideration. Wood generally is lighter. The heartwood of thin-shell walnut trees is the king of all woods imo, and is used almost exclusively on high grade rifles and shotguns. That it's relatively rare on knife handles baffles me. I see some examples on knives and scales from suppliers, but the quality of most that I've seen has been rather ordinary. The best of it is hard yet light and beautifully colored in amber and black smoke. Some of it can be profusely curly and display striking chatoyance. I have several 2-piece gun sets (buttstocks/forends) that have been drying 20+ years from my gun collecting days, some of which I'm considering cutting up and stabilizing for ultra-light yet handsome handles.
Of course, 2 of my favorite mainstays, desert ironwood and African blackwood, seem in good supply and reasonably priced, though in this age of environmentalism, these wood could disappear in one court/political edict.
Select g-bone works for me, but it costs as much as stag, which means most of my shekels will go for stag.
How about damascus steel/nickle handles? Check out Brian Lyttle's website for some wonderful examples in folders and fixed blades. Even skeletonized knives can be elegant, though most are not. I have my eye on one currently that has a price I'm unwilling to pay but hopeful it will eventually hit the sale bin.
Lastly, and at the risk of banishment and harsh ridicule, may I suggest dyed jigged bone even for fixed blades. If you doubt that some jigged bone can be lovely check out the stiff horn in the gallery at vestalknives.com.
ken
One well known supplier told me recently that he doubts that India will ever export Sambar stag again, but Culpepper apparently has a reliable source of Mongolian Sambar stag (isn't everything made in China?) that is just as good (so they insist) as Indian stag except that the antlers are a little smaller, meaning the jumbo pieces will be rarer. Their top grade and largest size cost $63 per set, natural OR ambered.
The only time I might not select stag is when weight is a consideration. Wood generally is lighter. The heartwood of thin-shell walnut trees is the king of all woods imo, and is used almost exclusively on high grade rifles and shotguns. That it's relatively rare on knife handles baffles me. I see some examples on knives and scales from suppliers, but the quality of most that I've seen has been rather ordinary. The best of it is hard yet light and beautifully colored in amber and black smoke. Some of it can be profusely curly and display striking chatoyance. I have several 2-piece gun sets (buttstocks/forends) that have been drying 20+ years from my gun collecting days, some of which I'm considering cutting up and stabilizing for ultra-light yet handsome handles.
Of course, 2 of my favorite mainstays, desert ironwood and African blackwood, seem in good supply and reasonably priced, though in this age of environmentalism, these wood could disappear in one court/political edict.
Select g-bone works for me, but it costs as much as stag, which means most of my shekels will go for stag.
How about damascus steel/nickle handles? Check out Brian Lyttle's website for some wonderful examples in folders and fixed blades. Even skeletonized knives can be elegant, though most are not. I have my eye on one currently that has a price I'm unwilling to pay but hopeful it will eventually hit the sale bin.
Lastly, and at the risk of banishment and harsh ridicule, may I suggest dyed jigged bone even for fixed blades. If you doubt that some jigged bone can be lovely check out the stiff horn in the gallery at vestalknives.com.
ken
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I urge any collectors to hold off on buying material for future knives until they can speak with a few of their favorite makers about what to look for in nice material.
It goes way beyond the obvious.... color, figure, texture...
Let's take stag carvers as an example. I had a collector who called me and said he had a box full of the nicest stag I could ever hope to see. He sent it to me and upon opening the box, my first reaction was, "These are all left-handed pieces."
I called him and told him, and he didn't follow my logic. A taper should curve WITH the flowing shape of your hand, and NOT AGAINST it. Being left-handed... it's easy for me to spot a left-handed piece lol
Also, the pieces all tapered down to such a small diameter on one end, you would have to have a ridiculously narrow ricasso to match.
There were odd little curves and bumps that would have been extremely difficult to work around.
Some were TOO curved, some were too straight, some were too narrow on the pommel end...
To sum it up, out of a box of 60 or so pieces of initially mind-blowing stag, after a closer look I would not have purchased a single piece of it had I seen it at a show!!!
Looks aren't everything
It gets even stickier with mammoth, walrus, and pearl (IMHO anyway).
Ask somebody like Don Hanson (at a show!) what he looks for when buying ivory, and I'll bet you'll be surprised at the criteria it must match.
Even with wood, there are a lot of things to look for beyond that "Wow that's a cool looking piece" reaction.
But then again, maybe some makers aren't soooo ADD/OCD like me and wouldn't have any issues with whatever material came into their shop (but I doubt it!)
It goes way beyond the obvious.... color, figure, texture...
Let's take stag carvers as an example. I had a collector who called me and said he had a box full of the nicest stag I could ever hope to see. He sent it to me and upon opening the box, my first reaction was, "These are all left-handed pieces."
I called him and told him, and he didn't follow my logic. A taper should curve WITH the flowing shape of your hand, and NOT AGAINST it. Being left-handed... it's easy for me to spot a left-handed piece
lolAlso, the pieces all tapered down to such a small diameter on one end, you would have to have a ridiculously narrow ricasso to match.
There were odd little curves and bumps that would have been extremely difficult to work around.
Some were TOO curved, some were too straight, some were too narrow on the pommel end...
To sum it up, out of a box of 60 or so pieces of initially mind-blowing stag, after a closer look I would not have purchased a single piece of it had I seen it at a show!!!
Looks aren't everything
It gets even stickier with mammoth, walrus, and pearl (IMHO anyway).
Ask somebody like Don Hanson (at a show!) what he looks for when buying ivory, and I'll bet you'll be surprised at the criteria it must match.
Even with wood, there are a lot of things to look for beyond that "Wow that's a cool looking piece" reaction.
But then again, maybe some makers aren't soooo ADD/OCD like me and wouldn't have any issues with whatever material came into their shop (but I doubt it!)
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I love a good piece of walnut as much as the next guy, however it doesn't meet the requirements of a good knife handle here in the shop.
First it has to be dense enough to sink in water. If it floats, its out.
And it must be hard enough to not dent with a finger nail pressed into it. If it can be dinted with a finger nail. It must be very lightly so.
And finally. It must be close grained, and oily enough to take its own finish without additional oils. Other wise,it can dry out in use by the owner over the years. Most customers just don't' take all that good care of their equipment.
Walnut works great on guns. But a knife handle will take more abuse in one hunt than even a slightly taken care of rifle.
for collectors only, it is OK. but I don't make knives targeted toward. Yes, they are collectible, but because of the quality. Not because they were made for looks before function. That I will not do.
First it has to be dense enough to sink in water. If it floats, its out.
And it must be hard enough to not dent with a finger nail pressed into it. If it can be dinted with a finger nail. It must be very lightly so.
And finally. It must be close grained, and oily enough to take its own finish without additional oils. Other wise,it can dry out in use by the owner over the years. Most customers just don't' take all that good care of their equipment.
Walnut works great on guns. But a knife handle will take more abuse in one hunt than even a slightly taken care of rifle.
for collectors only, it is OK. but I don't make knives targeted toward. Yes, they are collectible, but because of the quality. Not because they were made for looks before function. That I will not do.
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There are some bones that I like, but they are the ancient ones. Ancient whale bone, Stellar's sea cow. oosic and mammoth leg bone. I have seen handles from all of these materials that I like. Another material that makes a very nice handle, that is extremely tough, is walrus jawbone. I have seen a few handles made from sheep horn that has been polished smooth, and they looked great. I prefer sheep horn with that kind of smooth look over the ridged handles I have seen.
I'm still not sold on giraffe bone. I like the look of about one out of every ten knife handles that I see that are made from this material. My problem is with the dying.
I'm still not sold on giraffe bone. I like the look of about one out of every ten knife handles that I see that are made from this material. My problem is with the dying.
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I urge any collectors to hold off on buying material for future knives until they can speak with a few of their favorite makers about what to look for in nice material.
It goes way beyond the obvious.... color, figure, texture...
Let's take stag carvers as an example. I had a collector who called me and said he had a box full of the nicest stag I could ever hope to see. He sent it to me and upon opening the box, my first reaction was, "These are all left-handed pieces."
I called him and told him, and he didn't follow my logic. A taper should curve WITH the flowing shape of your hand, and NOT AGAINST it. Being left-handed... it's easy for me to spot a left-handed piece
Also, the pieces all tapered down to such a small diameter on one end, you would have to have a ridiculously narrow ricasso to match.
There were odd little curves and bumps that would have been extremely difficult to work around.
Some were TOO curved, some were too straight, some were too narrow on the pommel end...
To sum it up, out of a box of 60 or so pieces of initially mind-blowing stag, after a closer look I would not have purchased a single piece of it had I seen it at a show!!!
Looks aren't everything
It gets even stickier with mammoth, walrus, and pearl (IMHO anyway).
Ask somebody like Don Hanson (at a show!) what he looks for when buying ivory, and I'll bet you'll be surprised at the criteria it must match.
Even with wood, there are a lot of things to look for beyond that "Wow that's a cool looking piece" reaction.
But then again, maybe some makers aren't soooo ADD/OCD like me and wouldn't have any issues with whatever material came into their shop (but I doubt it!)
Informative post Nick. :thumbup: Good to bring this to collectors attention. I have wondered how much handle material is purchased by collectors just to end up in a drawer forever.
Do not worry mammoth will always be available. As I see it because almost all the Siberian is now going to China the price will continue to go up. I just returned from a buying trip and found that the villagers are having a hard time getting out in their boats as the price of gas is over $8 per gallon. I was able to buy 300 pounds of material and only 70 pounds of that is bark. I have all the quality material sold to a maker who is stocking up. I did find an incredible 13 foot tusk I am trying to make a deal on. This will not be cut up but will be sold at auction for big $. Kieth, if you ever visit Alaska I can take you to the source of the fossil walrus ivory . I do not deal in it any more but it is still my favorite handle and carving material
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This is a really interesting thread. Myself and Josh Smith talked a lot recently about mammoth Ivory. Nick thank you for the advice of talking to the knife makers we work with and getting pointers. AK Ivory would you mind emailing me at trevor@trevorzantos.com I have been looking at going up to Alaska to get Ivory.
Thanks,
Trevor
Thanks,
Trevor
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Good quality Stag is always a good alternative in any price range.
At the risk of starting yet another seemingly endless giraffe bone bashing session, it's another good alternative as long as it's natural or tastefully dyed. It's stable and when tastefully dyed can look very much like ivory.
Has mammoth doubled in price in 12 months? I was shopping for it at Blade so knew it had creped up, but didn't notice anything that drastic? The BEST stuff of course has never been cheap.
Good examples of fine G-bone... :thumbup: