What would happen?? All LEO's respond.

F

frank aka rage

Joined
Jan 16, 2000
Messages
37
Hello people, well, i know this is not a great question, and maybe i should contact a Lawyer or such, but heres my situation.
On a daily basis i carry the following knives. A Cold Steel Culloden-5inch blade, and it is usually an inside-the-pants carry, with only the handle showing, i carry my new(and very well done) mini-culloden, this has a 3.5inch blade, and is carried under my dress shirt. Plus 2 AFCK's, one in my front right pocket of my dress pants, and the other is clipped to my back-left cheek pocket. Now, i know that is a little much, but i love to carry what i've spent my money on, plus i use them quite a bit, well, the only knives i use is my 2 AFCK's, the cullodens are mainly for self-defense.

Lets say i was in a situation where i had to use my knives for self-defense, and hurt, or most likely killed my attacker, this is after all other scenario's are screwed, whether it was running away, or whatever. And i was severally threatned, and was in a corner or such, and was trapped, what would happen to me after all the comotion-after the attackers, where dead, or i was dead-if i was still living, would i have to face jail time, or be fined, or what, after all i am carrying alot of knives, and they can be considered illegal. In the eyes of the law, what would happen to me????


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"for future shall not bring freedom..but not the sight that man sees, harvest your freedom, and make a future..for no one is here to protect your fate, and tame your dreams-freedom, it's in the air..."
 
Rage,
I have W. Hock Hocheims 'Knife Fighting Encyclopedia V-I' and it speaks in detail about scenarios similar. I don't remember it mentioning multiple knife carry but has some good information you might want to check out.

I have no experience with this myself but from the situation you describe I imagine you would not pass GO but directly to jail where you would lose your blades as evidence, have to be arraigned (?sp) or post bond and contact one heck of an attorney, go through trial where you would face a jury of peers, hopefully be acquitted or plea to a lesser charge then (if you were lucky) wouldn't have to face civil charges from the family of the victim. Other than that, I would be very interested to find out if you could get your blades back after a trial like that...... Did OJ have his blade returned to him? Oh, that's right I forgot....... ;-) JOKE! ;-)
Shawn

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I know I can't hold the hate inside my mind
'Cause what consumes your thoughts controls your life
So I'll just ask a question
What if?

What if your words could be judged like a crime?
-CREED ('What if')
 
Thanks for the reply, my main concern would be how much jail time i would do, this would be purely self-defense, me protecting my life, but i due carry many knives, and they might be considered illegal. To all you LEO's out there, please don't think i have no respect for the Law, i have no respect for the thug who wants to take my life, so therefore i will use all means to defend myself.
 
BTW, CREED rules, also, if you are into heavy metal, pick up the new album by the band SLIPKNOT, the tracks 2 3 4and5 are the heaviest metal i've ever heard, they rock.
 
Rage,
I'm sure someone here can give you some more specifics......

Off subject......... Yeah, I picked up Human Clay as fast as it came out cause CREED's My Own Prison was incredible! I've never heard Slipknot but will check them out. I've been wanting to put together a custom CD of just the gnarliest metal/hard rock you can get. I've listened to some of the UK streaming audio of House music and it is real cool. Do you know of any instrument only stuff for metal/hard rock/heavy alternative? I want to find something heavy with guitar riffs and drum solos just one after another like bullets ripping your neurons apart...... Something to meditate to, ya know.?! ;-)
Shawn
 
Let me first say that I don't know about New York, so don't quote me. From talking to a few LEOs, 'Emanym Ton' is pretty correct about what would happen. You would be arrested for homicide (whenever you kill someone, it is homicide, even if it is justified). You would go to court, hopefully the next day, where you would be arraigned (yes, you had the right spelling), at which point you would enter a plea. I don't know the exact wording (your lawyer will), but you will enter a plea that your actions constituted justifiable homicide. You will also be asked to enter a plea on the weapons charge, if you are carrying illegal knives, and I'm guessing that will be 'guilty,' unless your lawyer has some inspiration. You will go to trial (you want to, because you can never be charged again (okay, if some really important new evidence shows up...) if you are found not guilty, whereas you could be if you were just released), where all the normal stuff happens. No one can tell what a jury will do, but (assuming it really was self-defense, and you had exhausted all other options to escape) your homicide should be ruled 'justifiable,' and you would probably be given probation, a suspended sentence, or something on the weapons charge. That means you would not get the knives back, and (depending on how severe an offense to NY law those knives are) you would probably have a felony on your record, which has all sorts of consequences.

Too bad we don't live in a perfect world...

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
I think only correct answer here is "It depends!" Is it one of the very many jurisdictions where the laws frown upon fixed blade knives carried discretely "for protection"?

And how "murky" were the circumstances?

Were you completey minding your own business, and a guy with a bunch of prior arrests and convictions for violent crime attacked you without provocation? Or had you been mutually speculating about each other's parentage and personal habits, when he suddenly assaulted you?

Did you cut across an aggressors arm that had a weapon at the end of it, and cut the radial artery, though you mainly wanted to cut his tendons and disarm him? Or did you cut him fifteen times, the last one across the throat, and twelve people whe weren't there think you could have quit and walked away after five?

So many gruesome variables ....


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Rage,

Your biggest concern should be the jury, but carrying a knife in an 'illegal' manner certainly will not help. Just remember, the prosecution will attempt to dismiss any potential jurors who support your right to self-preservation.
 
Well hopefully it will never happen to you.

This is a true story in such a senerio was met. Guy walks into a bar.Ouch, never saw it.

Seriously folks, Guy walks out of a bar with 2 females. In the parking lot are 3 teens from the city project that acost them. One is holding a machette. The good guy takes out a knife and plunges it into the muggers chest.(He later dies)Good guy left scene scared of what occured. Later Police are looking for the man. He later turns himself in with the knife. A politically correct Buck knife worn strapped with leather on his side. He gets charged and in the end.....NOT GUILTY!!!

Bottom line I think the only knife they'd want to have from you was the knife involved. The other stuff would/could not really be used against you.

I'd say if you are well in the right to defend your life, do so. And do so with conviction. Alot of talk about using a gun in scenerios like that. "will I get sued, etc". This breeds a fear of reacting. This could even pause you long enough to get killed. Better be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


Just MY thoughts.


[This message has been edited by Frank Castle (edited 06-07-2000).]
 
Rage I have to agre witht he answer of it depends. More than likly you will be arrested for Homicide and it will be investigated by the police. It would be the determination of the DA if you would be formerly charged with murder or any other charge. ( I am going by the laws here in Kansas) remember one thing GET A LAWYER no matter what. If you know your actions are justifiable that is all good. The lawyer will be able to assist you in the legal matters that will be coming no matter what. Also remember after the DA reviews the evidence that law enforcement brings to them and they rule it justifiable you will not be charged. I dont know about getting your weapons back . But that is a different story.

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All it takes for the forces of evil to rule the world is for good men to do nothing...Edmund Burke
 
One thing of which you should be aware. If you use a knife in self defense, you have a much harder time proving your innocence than if you had used a gun. There is a built in social discrimination against knives. Sometimes this is even reflected in the laws governing these objects. For example, here in CA, carrying a fixed blade concealed is a felony; carrying a gun concealed without a permit is a misdemeanor.

Mas Ayoob, a controversial person in gun circles for his opinions, yet known as very savy in legal self defense cases, recounted a case involving an elderly Asian man who was innocently walking down the street and was accosted by three young thugs. He had been trained in knife fighting (FMA called escrima, IIRC), pulled out two butterfly knives and started defending himself; he inflicted about 100 cuts on the three thugs in about one minute. All the cuts were on the assailant's arms and hands. The assailants finally decided they had had enough, and left the old guy alone. The cops come, find several witnesses who corroborate the old man's story that he was minding his own business and was without provocation set upon. Despite this, he is arrested, and brought to trial! It took, BTW, three surgeons a few hours to sew up all the lacerations, but there was no permanent damage to the assailants.

At trial, the witnesses again corroborated the old man's story. The judge remained unconvinced, simply not believing that one person could inflict so many cuts in such a short period of time. So the old man's lawyer brings two heavy (boxing) bags into court, hands the defendent two butterfly knives, and starts his stop watch. After one minute, there are more than 100 cuts on the bags. The old man was found innocent.

This case illustrates the bias against knife users. Here was a case of clear self defense, yet considerable time and money had to be spent in legal defense. Clearly the old man did the right thing, rather than letting himself be beaten or killed, but he still had to defend himself in court.

You should probably count on having to do the same, since it is doubtful your case will be so clear cut as was this one.

Walt
 
I met a guy once who had just gotten out of jail after serving 16 months of a 4 year sentence for "justifiable homicide." He was walking down the street, minding his own business, when someone pointed a gun in his face. He took the gun away and shot the guy, killing him. There were witnesses, including a security guard, all agreed. The guy was still sentenced to four years. I suppose they argued that he didn't have to kill his attacker to defend himself, especially once he took the gun away; but as far as I am concerned, if someone points a gun in your face you have the right to do whatever you want to them. Anyway, they called this "justifiable" and sent him to jail anyway. Bad situation all around, kinda like kids getting suspended from school for defending themselves, but going to jail is a lot worse than getting suspended from school. If the opportunity arises, ditch the unused weapons (unless you yourself can disappear) before the police arrive - it'll make you look a little bit better.

Good luck (to all of us if something like this ever happens),

Jason

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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"

- Zarathustra
 
As many have stated, it varies from state to state. But what they taught us in the academy is pretty much the standard. And in Florida, there is no descrimination between the public and law enforcement. The rules are the same. You need to remember three words - Justifiable, necessary, and appropriate. You must satisfy all three of these words.

If someone intends to kill you, your use of force is JUSTIFIABLE. However, if a 90 year old blind paraplegic is trying to kill you, your use of force is not NECESSARY - you'd be in trouble. If you dissarm the assailant who is trying to kill you and they are defenseless your use of force is neither necessary nor APPROPRIATE - you're in trouble, just as the person in medusaoblongata's reply above. Sure the assailant needs incarceration (in addition to an ass-whipping, but I wouldn't do that, that would be wrong he-he), but you can't chase them down, or even overpower them, and just kill them.

Please don't be afraid to defend yourself. I am a firm believer in self-defense, up to and including deadly force. If you can articulate that your use of force is justified, necessary, and appropriate you probably will spend the night at home. But even if you don't we had an old saying at school - "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

And Hey - Be careful out there
 
No Emanym Ton, i havent heard of anything you described, but believe me, look out for SLIPKNOT, they are the sickest, most heaviest metal band i've heard, www.cdnow.com has there CD, they rule.

ON SUBJECT: thanks everyone for all your replies, and to be honest i really do agree with that saying, that i'd rather be tried by 12, rather to be carried out by 6. I think i'll keep on carring my fixed blades, and to be really truthful, i'd rather be in jail, instead of being dead, hey, at least you can always escape, LOL.
 
YO Frank!
I don't know if you are from NYC or not...Some one recently posted the NYC statutes here, you could probably search it out...
Basically NYC sez locking folders and FB's must be under 4" the wording is fuzzy about the FB's though (mebbe its me)...
Daggers are definately a no, no!
I think your bigger concern is getting caught with the daggers. You can't explain them away as tools...
IMO you are more likely to get stopped by a LEO (car accident/ fender bender...BTDT or something similar), that dragged into a life and death encounter with BG's...The guy that robbed me had a GUN & my knife wouldn't have me any good anyway
smile.gif
Another guy thought he was gunna rob me with a knife, but I was outta there before he could finish "give me your..."

Just my 2¢
Climbing down off my soapbox,
I remain, Ebbtide
 
A surprising portion of what takes place in a criminal arrest & prosecution turns on the discretion of the arresting officers and prosecutors. Carrying multiple knives has a high "dangerous wacko" appearance factor to most citizens, truth be told, and this will color how you and your story are perceived by the authorities. Therefore to the extent that they are relying on your word for what transpired, they are likely to err on the side of the "this guy was heavily armed and eager to stick someone for a thrill" interpretation of events, rather than believing you were a hapless innocent. The expense and risk of a criminal prosecution for murder is high, even if you prevail. You could save yourself a lot of trouble by carrying one culloden and one small folder - the first for defense, the second a harmless-looking utility blade. Or better, rely on one AFCK. That looks less immediately suspect - the sooner in proceedings you win the sympathy of the authorities, the less likely you are to have big troubles with them. The burden of a criminal trial should not be evaluated lightly, really.

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The beatings will continue until morale improves.
 
Yup, too many what if's. California weapons law is murky, and I recommend the book about California Weapons Law written by Rick Bruce, SFPD.

As for the scenario, you would be charged, dragged thru. the gutter, etc. The Culloden under your shirt is a felony, etc...

On another side note, musically, if you're looking for really good, very technical, rip-yer-head-off metal, check out Nevermore or Iced Earth...

--dan
 
I think that in any self defense situation, it must be clear that the person using deadly force had no other options including escape. Knife carriers have to be on guard against macho responses that cannot be justified legally. Killing somebody because he is a jerk is not justifiable. For instance, the earlier sitruation where the man took the gun away from his attacker, although I'm sure he was angry, his life was no longer in danger once took the gun
 
In the case where you disarm someone, how do you know that they don't have another weapon or that they won't counter attack with their bare hands. Unless you have already disabled the assailant, it would seem prudent to do so...better their life than yours.
 
As I said earlier, justifiable homocide usually means that a person has a reasonable fear for his or her life or someone else's. If you have recovered a gun fron some one after a struggle unless that person produces a weapon or makes a sudden threatening move, a jury is most likely to convict you for shooting unless there are mitigating circumstances.
 
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