What would I gain, if anything by......

[Badhammer]

purchasing a Umnumzaan that my Sebenza doesn't offer? I've had a Sebenza Large 21 for several years and like it a great deal. Been considering an Umnumzaan as my next purchase if for no other reason then I just don't feel the need for two Sebenza's.

If you had to describe what the Umnum brings to the table that differs from the Seb, (pro or con) in as few words as possible, what would those words be? TIA

 

[Scott Dog]

It depends on what you want to use the knife for. The umnum is more tactical looking, sort of like competition against strider and hinderer type knives. Glass breaker ceramic ball that contacts lockbar and blade tang, semisharp swedge. I carried mine for about a year and went back to the seb, the Umnum was too hard on my pockets, it wore them out and the knife looked too tactical for my purposes. I currently EDC a large Insingo. Umnum is well made with nice features but wasn't different enough for me change to.

 

[So-Lo]

I have both and like the Sebenza much better, I also feel the Sebenza is the tougher knife. So I would say you gain.... Nothing

 

[JNewell]

I had an Umnu for a while...sold it. Nice knife, but didn't deliver all the utility and little touches that I expect from the Sebs. This is all really personal taste and preference, though, so you may have to buy one to find out...

 

[misterjuiceman]

I have both and like the Sebenza much better, I also feel the Sebenza is the tougher knife. So I would say you gain.... Nothing

I personally prefer the Sebenza, having owned two Umnums, and a Sebenza. Why do you feel that the Sebenza is tougher?

 

[Adamar]

I actually believe the Umnumzaan is tougher. Thicker TI scales, thicker blade stock and bigger pivot. I also think the thumb studs being used as the blade stop (similar to Strider, Hinderer, ZT) is a stronger design than the standard blade stop of the Sebenza. Some say that the Umnumzaan tip is not as thick (strong), but I think the swedge makes it appear thinner than it really is.

Reasons why I prefer the Umnumzaan:
1. As mentioned above - thicker everything.
2. I prefer the pivot. It can be adjusted to make it easier or harder to open.
3. I like the Umnumzaan thumb stubs better. Easier on the thumbs and duel stubs are standard.
3. I prefer the quiet opening of the Umnumzaan and it feels a bit smoother than my Sebenza.
4. I have the Wilson Startac Umnumzaan and I prefer the look of this to the Sebenza, although I do like the look of the Sebenza better than the standard Umnumzaan.

With all this being said, in real world use, there is very little difference between the two.

Since you already have a Large Sebenza, you may be better off getting a small Sebenza instead of the Umnumzaan.

 

[So-Lo]

I personally prefer the Sebenza, having owned two Umnums, and a Sebenza. Why do you feel that the Sebenza is tougher?

IMHO the pivot size does not matter at all, yes it gives you warm fuzzys when you see it, but I can't remember ever hearing anyone breaking a Sebenza pivot. As for the zaan's blade being slightly thicker, they are both hollow ground... and the Sebenza has a thicker tip (much thicker.)

Some say the stud is the blade stop on the Zaan makes it stronger, I would agree if it was NOT a two piece stud! Only one side takes the force, the other side is on for looks.....

Im not sure who has the thicker Ti slabs, I thought they were the same.... I'll have to go look. At any rate they both have the same cut out, so they are the same there.

I feel the Sebenza has a better lock up contact area that will create more friction when any closing force is on it. The Zaan only has the pin point of the ball touching the tang, while mine feels very strong, I would bet it would slip before my full contact lock up on the Sebenza.

I also feel the Sebenza has the better blade stop, because it's a solid male and female screw through BOTH side of the Ti, unlike the Zaan that only has a two piece stud..... If it was a one piece pressed in stud like the XM-18 it would be better, but it's not.

I like the Zaan, a lot... buts it no Sebenza

 

[So-Lo]

Not my pix, but remember these?

Chris did say they were looking into going to a one piece pressed in stud, I wonder if they have done that yet?



.

 

[Adamar]

IMHO the pivot size does not matter at all, yes it gives you warm fuzzys when you see it, but I can't remember ever hearing anyone breaking a Sebenza pivot. As for the zaan's blade being slightly thicker, they are both hollow ground... and the Sebenza has a thicker tip (much thicker.)

Some say the stud is the blade stop on the Zaan makes it stronger, I would agree if it was NOT a two piece stud! Only one side takes the force, the other side is on for looks.....

Im not sure who has the thicker Ti slabs, I thought they were the same.... I'll have to go look. At any rate they both have the same cut out, so they are the same there.

I feel the Sebenza has a better lock up contact area that will create more friction when any closing force is on it. The Zaan only has the pin point of the ball touching the tang, while mine feels very strong, I would bet it would slip before my full contact lock up on the Sebenza.

I also feel the Sebenza has the better blade stop, because it's a solid male and female screw through BOTH side of the Ti, unlike the Zaan that only has a two piece stud..... If it was a one piece pressed in stud like the XM-18 it would be better, but it's not.

I like the Zaan, a lot... buts it no Sebenza

You make some good points, but it is interesting that you tend to discount all the advantages of the Unmunzaan as not being important, but all the advantages of the Sebenza are extremely important. I still think the Umnumzaan swedge makes the tip appear thinner than it really is. I sent my Sebenza into CRK for some upgrades (refinish blade from satin to stonewash, perforated washers and new screws), but when I get it back, I will take another look at the tip thickness.

My understanding is the Umnumzaan was developed by Chris Reeve as an upgrade to the Sebenza, so I will have to defer to the Master.

But as I already said above. In my real world use, I find very little difference.

 

[misterjuiceman]

IMHO the pivot size does not matter at all, yes it gives you warm fuzzys when you see it, but I can't remember ever hearing anyone breaking a Sebenza pivot. As for the zaan's blade being slightly thicker, they are both hollow ground... and the Sebenza has a thicker tip (much thicker.)

Some say the stud is the blade stop on the Zaan makes it stronger, I would agree if it was NOT a two piece stud! Only one side takes the force, the other side is on for looks.....

Im not sure who has the thicker Ti slabs, I thought they were the same.... I'll have to go look. At any rate they both have the same cut out, so they are the same there.

I feel the Sebenza has a better lock up contact area that will create more friction when any closing force is on it. The Zaan only has the pin point of the ball touching the tang, while mine feels very strong, I would bet it would slip before my full contact lock up on the Sebenza.

I also feel the Sebenza has the better blade stop, because it's a solid male and female screw through BOTH side of the Ti, unlike the Zaan that only has a two piece stud..... If it was a one piece pressed in stud like the XM-18 it would be better, but it's not.

I like the Zaan, a lot... buts it no Sebenza

Not my pix, but remember these?

Chris did say they were looking into going to a one piece pressed in stud, I wonder if they have done that yet?



.

I agree with everything you've said, except now the Umnums have a single piece thumb stud. That picture you posted was from a soldier whose vehicle was blown up, and apparently there was a tolerance issue with the thumbstuds at that point. they were since fixed (but still two pieces), and then I believe they were replaced with single piece thumbstuds.

 

[Toyz]

I've got both a large Sebbie and an Umnumzaan, and I just don't use knives hard enough to really be able to determine a huge difference.

I like the feel of the Umnumzaan in hand a little better than the Sebanza. I also think the checkering on the scales makes the Umnum a little more "grippy".

The swedge on the Umnum has come in handy - especially when I try to change out my hvac filters. Both fit into their recesses very tight, and when I push the umnum blade into the side the swedge grabs hold and I am able to pull them out. The Sebbie blade just pulls out without the filter.

It's the little things.

 

[So-Lo]

My understanding is the Umnumzaan was developed by Chris Reeve as an upgrade to the Sebenza, so I will have to defer to the Master.

Where have you heard that? I know some consumers have said that, but I'v never seen anything from CRK saying that.

But as I already said above. In my real world use, I find very little difference.

I would agree 100%, both are very well made, tough hollow ground framelocks.

To the op, the umnum does open unlike any knife you have probably felt. :thumbup:

 

[Biginboca]

I remember Chris posting that sometime around June of 2010 the thumbstuds on the Umnumzaan switched to a one piece design.

What the Umnum offers over the Sebenza that you can experience in use is a glassbreaker, a scraper swedge, and slightly different ergos. I can't say if its better than the Sebenza, but its certainly no worse and my choice of the 2.

 

[So-Lo]

I remember Chris posting that sometime around June of 2010 the thumbstuds on the Umnumzaan switched to a one piece design.

What the Umnum offers over the Sebenza that you can experience in use is a glassbreaker, a scraper swedge, and slightly different ergos. I can't say if its better than the Sebenza, but its certainly no worse and my choice of the 2.

Great post

I looked into the one piece stud, and it does seem your right :thumbup:

Hey guys – I am sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. Please believe me when I say I have started on this several times over and something always gets in the way!

The issue of the thumb lug problem of the very first batch of Umnumzaans is rather complex and the technicalities of it are difficult to describe so I am not going to go into detail. It revolves around an error on the handle fixture, and the way the lugs connect. Immediately we realized there was a problem, we altered the fixture and changed the tolerance of the connecting sections of the lugs so that they fit much closer. We do not know exactly how many knives we produced like this but our best estimate is well under 100. We have received fewer than 10 knives returned for this problem, and every Umnumzaan sent in for sharpening, refurbish etc. is checked. With these changes, the thumb lugs have been rock solid.

Since we always work to upgrade our engineering, Chris sought to improve the thumb lug which was already performing to all expectations. He designed the single bar thumb lug and we made them in-house during the first part of June. We do not have a day marked on the calendar as to when we started using them but estimate early July. There would have been a period of cross-over since the blades are slightly different for the two styles and the guys fitting would use whichever lug was appropriate as they worked through a batch of prepared blades.

And I say again – if you have a problem with one of our knives, you know we will make it good!

Anne

 

[bearcut]

I actually believe the Umnumzaan is tougher. Thicker TI scales, thicker blade stock and bigger pivot. I also think the thumb studs being used as the blade stop (similar to Strider, Hinderer, ZT) is a stronger design than the standard blade stop of the Sebenza. Some say that the Umnumzaan tip is not as thick (strong), but I think the swedge makes it appear thinner than it really is.

Reasons why I prefer the Umnumzaan:
1. As mentioned above - thicker everything.
2. I prefer the pivot. It can be adjusted to make it easier or harder to open.
3. I like the Umnumzaan thumb stubs better. Easier on the thumbs and duel stubs are standard.
3. I prefer the quiet opening of the Umnumzaan and it feels a bit smoother than my Sebenza.
4. I have the Wilson Startac Umnumzaan and I prefer the look of this to the Sebenza, although I do like the look of the Sebenza better than the standard Umnumzaan.

With all this being said, in real world use, there is very little difference between the two.

Since you already have a Large Sebenza, you may be better off getting a small Sebenza instead of the Umnumzaan.

I agree with you.

Seems I’ve seen videos where people make a big deal about oversize pivots. But I digress…

As far as the thumbstuds go, the design provides more strength than the older Sebenza architecture, that’s why Chris used it. That’s why Strider and Hinderer use it also. Torque puts enormous pressure on blade pivots. Two points of contact beats one. For those who can’t wrap their head around this concept, Hinderers website explains it.

Do most of us torque our blades to failure? Of course not. But if we use our knives hard, we stress the pivot anyway, just less so with the dual contact design. Even though the Sebenza was designed as a work knife ,without fancy wood and fossil inlays or laser engraving and jewels, it appears from the pristine examples we see on these forums, that most users never stress their knives on anything more than envelopes and errant threads, so maybe this doesn’t matter at all. (My last Umnumzaan was so scratched up after two months that I had to buff out the handle. I actually use my knives outdoors)


Bottom line: after almost twenty five years, Chris designed a knife that is stronger and less expensive to manufacture than the Sebenza. Machining a blade bushing to exact tolerances is an expensive, time consuming process. The large, oversize pivot on the ‘Zaan works just as well and is much easier to produce. Knife designs evolve. After two decades you learn a thing or two and incorporate better ideas into your product.

 

[Badhammer]

Thanks to all for the replies. Lots to ponder.

 

[DallasSTB]

Bottom line: after almost twenty five years, Chris designed a knife that is stronger and less expensive to manufacture than the Sebenza. Machining a blade bushing to exact tolerances is an expensive, time consuming process. The large, oversize pivot on the ‘Zaan works just as well and is much easier to produce. Knife designs evolve. After two decades you learn a thing or two and incorporate better ideas into your product.

Listen to bearcut. He knows what he's talking about :thumbup:. Preferences aside, the Umnumzaan is a progressive step in many areas, not the least of which is keeping the cost to consumers reasonable for the quality produced.

 

[Bucky]

This thread really makes me want a Small Umnumzaan.

 

[marthinus]

Where have you heard that? I know some consumers have said that, but I'v never seen anything from CRK saying that.

Hi So-Lo

Chris Reeve stated in an interview with Woodsmonkey (interview is still available on Woodsmonkey) that if he had to go for one of the two "I (Chris Reeve) would go for the Umnumzaan" at 39:00 minutes into the interview.

Well worth downloading the interview to listen to the entire discussion. :thumbup:

 

[JNewell]

Listen to bearcut. He knows what he's talking about :thumbup:. Preferences aside, the Umnumzaan is a progressive step in many areas, not the least of which is keeping the cost to consumers reasonable for the quality produced.

Two good "P" words in that post, Steve! Preference, and Progressive. Tried Progressive, went back to my Preference - but others will definitely have different preferences. Choice is good. :thumbup: