What would you be comforatable with out in 20 degree weather or below.

[razorsdescent]

I can fall asleep anywhere. This is something that my friends have commented on.

Next weekend I plan on doing a double overnight backpacking trip and I am planning on brining the following: A HPG mountain Serape, a Wigg'ys poncho liner (no zipper) and an issued mil-surp poncho liner. This will be over a thermarest ground pad, the thicker ones not the ultralight model. I am adverse to sleeping bags as I do not like to feel restricted, and like I cannot act immediately.

My co-camper is brining a mil-surp black bag from an MMS system, they tend to be a cold sleeper, and may have to have the dog curl up with them as they are a cold sleeper. Again my friend will also be using a Thermarest inflatable pad.

The temperature is predicted to drop to 20 degrees at night, well below freezing.

We will be sleeping in a tent, not hammocking it, we will not be building a fire due to the rules of the back country area we ill be in. We both use mil-surp polypropylene tops and bottoms, I use the waffle pattern ninja suit and my friend uses the older and thicker brown ones. We both sleep with hats on.

My question is two-fold. Would you guys be comfortable in my set-up, would you be comfortable in my friends? If not, why, and how would you improve them? What do you guys think the limits of these set-ups are?

I appreciate people's feedback and generally want to improve my set-up and think about what I can do to improve. Also I want to see what other people are using for their winter set-ups, surely some of you guys are scoffing at a paltry 20 degrees.

 

[pinnah]

Lots of ways to skin the cat. I can only say how I do it with no comment on your approach, which may work better for you.

In that temp range, I have base layers, fleece layers and a non-waterproof shell to hike/ski in. I wp/b shell if rain/wet snow is forecast.

I will also carry warm Primaloft parka. 20F nights is on the cusp between my sort-of warm parka and my very warm parka. It rides in the top of my pack and gets put on during rest stops and in camp, much like the Serape is shown.

20F is also right on the edge sleeping bag wise. I sleep cold so my choice would be between my -10F bag or my 20F bag paired with a VBL shirt. Really depends on which side of 20F the forecast was really for. "In the mid 20s" I would use the 20F bag and VBL shirt.

The VBL shirt is great for in camp and sleeping. Boosts warmth with minimum weight. Some people hate them though.

I think you're on the right track in terms of the sleeping pad.

In terms of tents, I've moved to a floorless tarp/tent and bivy cover. But a tent will be warmer (and heavier).

Bottom line... for me (I sleep cold) I would have 2 layers of high loft insulation (bag and parka) and a layer of fleece. I would think you could get more insulation for the weight by trading the poncho liners for a high loft rectangular bag or quilt. Those lines look heavy with not a lot of loft value. Look more like "drag em through the mud" military type application, like a high tech wool blanket. Has it's purpose but...

 

[razorsdescent]

@ Pinah, my choices and the choices of my friend reflect our backgrounds. Lots of time outside, very little of it recreational. Do you believe that you yourself would be comfortable in my set-up? what about in my friends? The MMS is rated to -10 degrees, but we all know that these are very subjective ratings. I am interested in the perspective of people that sleep colder than me, that way I can tailor what gear I bring and loan for and to my friends.

 

[Bob W]

I sleep quite cold and would have difficulty being comfortable at 20 degrees. A particular issue is getting chilled and not being able to warm up again. So here's the sleep gear I would choose:

Bag rated to -20.
Insulated pad.
Extra wool blanket.
Longjohns, top and bottom.
Soft dry merino wool socks.
Stocking cap.

 

[razorsdescent]

@ Bob W, that is quite loaded for bear. I believe that I would actually be unable to fall asleep in such accommodations. I certainly agree with the socks and the skull cap, although being rough on gear, I tend to just buy regular wool. Wigwam Thick socks, and a mil-surp watch cap for me. I appreciate your concise gear listing. Would you be offended if I asked your ball park age just for reference (i.e 30's 40's etc) ? A lot of the cold sleepers that I run into on this and other forums do tend to be significantly older than myself. I also see you are a NM guy, that might have something to do with it as well. Again, appreciate the insight.

Do you believe that the set-up I use might provide an actual danger to you or do you think that you would merely be incredibly uncomfortable enough that you wouldn't sleep a wink? Not to trivialize lack of sleep in the bush.

 

[Bob W]

I tend to just buy regular wool. Wigwam Thick socks...

I wear the thickest wool socks I can find for hiking, but with a polyrpo liner so the wool isn't directly on my skin. For around the house or camp, the merino wool is wonderful, and no liner necessary.

Would you be offended if I asked your ball park age just for reference (i.e 30's 40's etc) ? I also see you are a NM guy, that might have something to do with it as well.

Not at all. 40s. But I've always been colder-blooded. Grew up near Chicago where I was always chilled by the damp drafty cold. New Mexico, here at 6700' elevation can be blistering cold at times during the winter, but we don't have week after week of of damp dreary 40-50 degree weather.

Do you believe that the set-up I use might provide an actual danger to you or do you think that you would merely be incredibly uncomfortable enough that you wouldn't sleep a wink? Not to trivialize lack of sleep in the bush.

Not dangerous, just chattering and uncomfortable.

I've backpacked in some pretty chilly weather in the Ozarks. Not sure how cold it was at night, but it was sleeting at 10am.

It also can be cold in the New Mexico mountains too, even in the summer; I've been snowed on in June, and suffered inches of hail in July that lasted on the ground for days.

 

[HwangJino]

It sounds good. I've done with less with my father (who grew up in frozen mountains as a child), he wanted to 'grow some hair on my balls) and tented in some location near a peak (I was about 12 or 12).

I remember kicking the tent door to knock the ice wall to take a piss, it was awesome though.

All we had was thick jackets, sleeping bags, and a bunch of cheap heat packs from big5.

 

[pinnah]

@ Pinah, my choices and the choices of my friend reflect our backgrounds. Lots of time outside, very little of it recreational. Do you believe that you yourself would be comfortable in my set-up? what about in my friends? The MMS is rated to -10 degrees, but we all know that these are very subjective ratings. I am interested in the perspective of people that sleep colder than me, that way I can tailor what gear I bring and loan for and to my friends.

Yah, I tipped to the non recreational bit when you like to be able to react immediately. I'm grateful for your service and pray that one day you can sleep in the arms of the backcountry without an eye open.

I think there are 3 inter-related questions here. 1) Does the system work? 2) Does it have enough insulation? 3) Weight?

I have no idea on the first question as I've not ever used it. I can say that in non-military applications, as the temperatures go down, pretty much all designs head toward a traditional mummy style bags. I think the primary issue is to minimize drafts and dead air space while maximizing loft and minimizing weight. It's the most efficient but you'll give up fast egress. My hunch is that you system will do ok in the 20F range but at Of would be really challenged. I find that issues get more complicated faster below 0F and now call off trips forecast below -10F.

A point of confusion on my part... will you be using the poncho liners as zipped together sleeping bags or as unzipped quilts? The issue with quilts and the reason why mummies become warmer as it gets colder is that amount of drafting you get around the unzipped edges. Even in a mummy, when you roll over on a cold night, you can push all the warm air out through the top and then your body needs to work hard again to warm up the new cold air. With quilts, it's even harder. If cold weather camping is something you want to continue to do and fast egress remains important, perhaps you can look into the military style mummy bags that have the quick release zippers. Just tug the zipper up to release it and rip it off.

In terms of sheer thermal insulation and weight, I renew my questioning of the poncho liners. Regardless of whether you're using them as quilts or rectangular bags, I would think a down or synthetic rectangular bag or quilt will give you more sheer warmth for less weight.

Two last comments or thoughts. First, I find 20F to be perfect winter camping weather as here in New England it means that its dry snow. A bit warmer with wet snow actually makes it harder for me. High 20s to high 30s is actually trickiest for me as everything gets wetter.

Second and not entirely unrelated, I didn't catch what sort of insulating layer you're using while hiking. I can't hike in a high-loft insulator like Primaloft at any temperature. Only fleece or pile. Might want to consider something like fleece or wool to wear over the polypro. Very easy to overheat in Primaloft and get it wet with sweat. Yes, warm when wet but better kept as dry as you can.

Can't wait to hear back on how the Serape works.

 

[razorsdescent]

Yah, I tipped to the non recreational bit when you like to be able to react immediately. I'm grateful for your service and pray that one day you can sleep in the arms of the backcountry without an eye open.

I think there are 3 inter-related questions here. 1) Does the system work? 2) Does it have enough insulation? 3) Weight?

I have no idea on the first question as I've not ever used it. I can say that in non-military applications, as the temperatures go down, pretty much all designs head toward a traditional mummy style bags. I think the primary issue is to minimize drafts and dead air space while maximizing loft and minimizing weight. It's the most efficient but you'll give up fast egress. My hunch is that you system will do ok in the 20F range but at Of would be really challenged. I find that issues get more complicated faster below 0F and now call off trips forecast below -10F.

A point of confusion on my part... will you be using the poncho liners as zipped together sleeping bags or as unzipped quilts? The issue with quilts and the reason why mummies become warmer as it gets colder is that amount of drafting you get around the unzipped edges. Even in a mummy, when you roll over on a cold night, you can push all the warm air out through the top and then your body needs to work hard again to warm up the new cold air. With quilts, it's even harder. If cold weather camping is something you want to continue to do and fast egress remains important, perhaps you can look into the military style mummy bags that have the quick release zippers. Just tug the zipper up to release it and rip it off.

In terms of sheer thermal insulation and weight, I renew my questioning of the poncho liners. Regardless of whether you're using them as quilts or rectangular bags, I would think a down or synthetic rectangular bag or quilt will give you more sheer warmth for less weight.

Two last comments or thoughts. First, I find 20F to be perfect winter camping weather as here in New England it means that its dry snow. A bit warmer with wet snow actually makes it harder for me. High 20s to high 30s is actually trickiest for me as everything gets wetter.

Second and not entirely unrelated, I didn't catch what sort of insulating layer you're using while hiking. I can't hike in a high-loft insulator like Primaloft at any temperature. Only fleece or pile. Might want to consider something like fleece or wool to wear over the polypro. Very easy to overheat in Primaloft and get it wet with sweat. Yes, warm when wet but better kept as dry as you can.

Can't wait to hear back on how the Serape works.

Well, to be honest, this is going to be the Serape's maiden voyage. I am buying one off another forumite. I already have the Kifaru woobie, and I love it, but I like to experiment with other things. The Serape is now made in the U.S, and buying it used I have no qualms about blemishing it, so it is win-win. The real appeal to me is that my body goes pretty much instantly into warm weather survival mode when I start rucking, so if I have anything resembling insulation on, I sweat majorly. Thus, the Serape is perfect for my needs, because whenever I pause to orient myself, I can just throw it on over me bag and all, then just whip it back off when I begin to move again. The temps will be in the mid thirties during the day, so I won't be wearing anything other than a t-shirt. At night I tend to use a TAD Ranger Hoodie or a Shag Master Hoodie.

First off, I am using a tent with two adults and a dog. Every experience I have with tents indicates that when you rig them right they trap heat. The expert opinions I have read back this up, and so does physics. So I am guessing that it will be close to or above freezing inside the tent and of course the wind factor is much reduced. I use a Eureka Apex 2XT, it is cheap (relatively speaking) and rugged, the payoff is that it is pretty heavy. Since I am rough on stuff, I don't mind. But, it is a double walled tent with a nearly full fly, and it keeps moisture outside where it belongs.

The plan is currently to half-zip the Serape and warp up in the Wiggy's inside the Serape. The Serape's are supposed to be reasonably roomy, so I figure this keeps the system together reasonably well. I can always fashion a foot-box for the Wiggy's poncho liner via the ties and push it inside the Serape making a handy half-zip bag that I can slide in and out of. Then I am just going to throw the mil-surp poncho over my whole body, face included to kind of seal me in from the world. This kind of set-up has worked for me in the past, I just wanted to get opinions from others. I used to just tough stuff out, and it gets old really quick, sleeping in a winter area in a hammock without a pad, because no one ever bothered to tell you that the same laws of physics that cause bridges to freeze first apply to hammocks. I have learned some lessons the hard way. As I said it got old, and if I don't have to, I don't want to be miserable.

I know that I have slept without waking in 20 degree weather in an Underarmor hoodie in a bag rated for 40 degree weather, just a side note.

Lastly, I agree that 20 degree weather is great. I can deal with wet, and I can deal with cold, but wet and cold is a recipe for misery. I have been in situations where I have been around other people that have had to be emergency treated fro becoming cold weather casualties and when you yourself can't stop shaking you feel like you are going to be next. I don't ever want to have the experience of becoming a cold or hot weather candidate. I have seen them both and they are both terrible.

Thanks for the advice, and if I missed any questions feel free to ask.

 

[Mannlicher]

heck, I would not go out of the house at 20F, but then I live in Florida.

 

[pinnah]

The plan is currently to half-zip the Serape and warp up in the Wiggy's inside the Serape. The Serape's are supposed to be reasonably roomy, so I figure this keeps the system together reasonably well. I can always fashion a foot-box for the Wiggy's poncho liner via the ties and push it inside the Serape making a handy half-zip bag that I can slide in and out of. Then I am just going to throw the mil-surp poncho over my whole body, face included to kind of seal me in from the world. This kind of set-up has worked for me in the past, I just wanted to get opinions from others. I used to just tough stuff out, and it gets old really quick, sleeping in a winter area in a hammock without a pad, because no one ever bothered to tell you that the same laws of physics that cause bridges to freeze first apply to hammocks. I have learned some lessons the hard way. As I said it got old, and if I don't have to, I don't want to be miserable.

Nod.

You've been through the training and have nosed up to these temps before. So you're well positioned and like you said, the tent and dog are a huge buffer. As you know/recall, the 4 modes of heat loss are: radiation (up to the sky), evaporation (wet base layers), conduction (sleeping pad) and convection (mummy bags win here). Just in terms of the raw physics, it's the convective heat loss that eventually drives people to mummys in super cold weather. Zippers with big double draft tubes, draft collars and full seal mummy hoods combined with a close "move with you" fit are all features that minimize the amount of warm/cold air exchange that you get from moving while sleeping.

I'm not suggesting that you change to a mummy. Not at all. Just reminding of the physics and noting that most of us have a temp threshold where mummy bags make more sense. What temperature? Totally depends on the person.


EDIT to Add: might find a copy of Colin Fletcher's "The Complete Walker". He describes using a VB sack and a down parka in much the same way you describe your plan. Great minds and all taht.

 

[razorsdescent]

Nod.

You've been through the training and have nosed up to these temps before. So you're well positioned and like you said, the tent and dog are a huge buffer. As you know/recall, the 4 modes of heat loss are: radiation (up to the sky), evaporation (wet base layers), conduction (sleeping pad) and convection (mummy bags win here). Just in terms of the raw physics, it's the convective heat loss that eventually drives people to mummys in super cold weather. Zippers with big double draft tubes, draft collars and full seal mummy hoods combined with a close "move with you" fit are all features that minimize the amount of warm/cold air exchange that you get from moving while sleeping.

I'm not suggesting that you change to a mummy. Not at all. Just reminding of the physics and noting that most of us have a temp threshold where mummy bags make more sense. What temperature? Totally depends on the person.


EDIT to Add: might find a copy of Colin Fletcher's "The Complete Walker". He describes using a VB sack and a down parka in much the same way you describe your plan. Great minds and all taht.

Hm, I like Cody Lundin's books and way of explaining heat loss, via convection, radiation, evaporation and conduction. He has goofy cartoons

I am more a biology and social sciences kind of guy, so a refresher on ambient heat loss is always appreciated. I like to think of these in more of a conceptual manner, in that your real goal is to maintain warm air. In this case loft is what does most of the retention, and you want to maintain the body heat that you are radiating via reflection. The less space you have to heat, the better and the quicker you reheat it if there is a draft, so you want to get the two main liners to roughly mirror each other and create dead air. Neither is the most highly breathable material but they are both supposed to be very hydrophobic. I kn ow that the mil-surp poncho is hydrophobic from personal experience, ergo when you have it over your face it can wick excess moisture. It isn't great at doing so, but it is better than a puddle.

I get that mummy bags are the way to go for extreme temperatures, and I will eventually invest in one.

Thanks for the book suggestion, I don't get much time for pleasure reading nowadays, but I will put it on the list of things to read over the summer.

 

[pinnah]

Right.

Here's how I understand the differences.

Conduction is like insulation in the walls of the house. Stops the heat from simply transferring directly into the cold air mass outside. This is the R rating. Can be provided by loft (above) or non-compacting insulator in the pad.

Convection is what happens when you open the front door of the house. The warm air goes out and cold air comes in, despite the insulated walls. This is what happens to me in a cold night when I roll over and feel the warm air blow out the top of my bag followed by a cold draft coming back into the bag.

 

[sideways]

Trial and error is the only way to go to find what works for you. At those temps I like an overkill mummy bag, thick ground pad, and enclosed tent. At the packing stage I like to err on the side of too much insulation since I can always vent if necessary. Also hot water bottles in wool socks are nice to keep the chill off.

 

[neeman]

+20
Your set up is just fine

Invest in a hot water bottle and fill it with hot water before you go to sleep

And
To help you sleep well
Hot sweet chotolate before sleeping
A candy bar for the middle of the night

 

[Quirt]

Invest in a hot water bottle and fill it with hot water before you go to sleep

I just heat up water and pour into my Nalgene bottle and stuff it in the leg of my pants and push down the bottom of my bag. Serves double duty keeping me warm, prevents my bottle from freezing and I don't have to carry one more piece of kit. Just a thought.

 

[OwenM]

More than enough for 20F, I would think. That's a lot of weight compared to a modern sleeping bag or quilt for the same amount of warmth, but still less than the old issue intermediate cold weather bag.
A sleeping bag might not be a bad thing. If you wake up wanting to react quickly to some noise, it might serve as a reminder of where you are.

 

[razorsdescent]

Hmmm, I am not really all that concerned with weight. To be frank I usually pack in more weight in beer than anything else, Dale's Stovepipes are a godsend to backpackers. If there is one thing that I can do, it is go distance with weight on my back.

Just to give an idea of what my set-up is more like, I am currently using an Arcteryx Altra 75, so I have plenty of room. When I hike with my friend and dog, I am the fastest one in the group, so as long as I am carrying at or below 60 lbs I am pretty comfy. Being on a mountain range makes ascent kind of a pain, but my friend has spine and knee problems and I try and make sure that they aren't really carry more than 20 lbs for an extended time, that will be comprised mainly of water weight, a bladder, a Nalgene bottle and an MMS is combined with a hygiene kit to make up 95% percent of their weight. I carry the poles, tent, booze, chopping knife, hatchet stove etc... The dog carries its own water, food, blanket and jacket. Essentially I am like the opposite of an ultralight guy. Not that I don't shave some lbs from time to time by using nicer gear, but I am willing to just carry more weight. A few years ago I was at the park I am going to with my now ex, and long story short they greatly overestimated their own ability to carry a load and I had to carry both packs back up the darn mountain, so I know factually that I can make the few miles from campsite to car with a 30 lb ruck and a 5 lb tripod stuffed into my 60 lb ruck.

Ironically, I use a heavier bag, (Eberlestock or Kifaru usually) when I am alone and pack lighter gear. I want to start hunting white tail next season and I will be using my Eberlestock Dragonfly or X2 instead of my relatively lighter Arcteryx. One of my other reasons for trying out a HPG Serape is to use it while spotting game. I am also looking into Emberlit stoves and Kifaru stoves for this endeavor.

For those who have interest in such things, dogs are a great boon to feeling comfortable for some people. But quite frankly I am not particularly interested in losing my sense of situational awareness. I consider my slight hyper vigilance more of a gift than a curse. I chose to spend time with people who are alike in that sense, as well as having preparedness as a shared value.

 

[gadgetgeek]

I would say that since you have the experience to know if things are going wrong, and obviously know to take action before hypothermia sets in, go for it. If someone gave that list and said it was their first trip, I'd say they were insane. You don't seem to be planning a comfort camp, and seem fairly aware of your own capabilities, so that should cover the safety end of things.

 

[Woods Walker]

Honestly I think you will be fine however sometimes the temps can be lower than in the forecast. Still in a tent/shelter with all of that you're not going to die by a long shot. That said I have used my sleeping bags as quilts down to negative 20 F. Just unzip the bag, flip it around and put your feet into the foot section. It works great.