What would you guys sugest for a new knifemaker?

Fletch Helical

Fletch Helical

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Sep 29, 2009
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I've been thinking about after my first knife gets finished (which Stacy is going to HT for me). What is the better route to take for the next knifes I'll be making. Since I know I'm not just doing one and done :). I'm wondering if it's better to have them sent out or attempt to do them myself. Let's forget the fact that I lack a forge for the moment, I'm sure with a little time I can get something going.

I'm looking at the overall picture. I like the idea of going from start to finish making a knife and saying that every step was done by me (big pro in my book). However being a noob I'm also not going to be turning knives out at any alarming rate either. So I'm also considering the distinct possibility of putting in however many days/weeks into making a knife and then screwing the whole thing up at some point in the HT process and wrecking all the time I just put in (big con in my book).

So what do you guys think? Should I focus more on the techniques of making knifes until I become more proficient in skill and time spent, then move onto the HT aspect of knife making. Or spend the time now learning both?
 
Sounds like the only logical answer would be to send out for heat treat, until you are properly equipped and educated to do so. most steels, will let you try again... but some wont. (well not easily anyway) so if you try, make sure it's a 10xx or 51xx steel. They seem to forgive the most during heat treat.

Jason
 
I say spend time learning both as I have done.

You can easily build a DIY forge for very little money. I know it looks intemidating to talk about temps and oils, and times but as someone on here once said, when you shorten the learning curve your shorten the learning.

Grind a blade... nothing fancy, HT it, then destroy it to see if your HT worked. maybe it's not the best method and you won't produce the best results at first, but a lot of value is placed on trial and error.

If you want to take pride in saying you did it from start to finish, this is the way to go. IMO
 
You will not know what you will need until you get to understand the materials and construction better, tackle one problem at a time and build over time. No need to try and tackle all aspects of knife making in one shot.
 
First step should be using the plural of knife: knives.

Do what is economically feasible. If I could do it all again, I'd concentrate on learning to forge and grind, sending out for heat treat, and build up to in-house. Trying to do everything all at once was tough.
 
I'd honestly say give it a shot. Do a search on the coffee can forge. That little guy is what I started with for about $50 with a gallon of olive oil. Use 1080, believe me it is very forgiving to mistakes. I think you'll have a blast just don't sweat it. You will warp a blade or two but just re heat, straighten and try again. Unless you rely upon selling knives for money its a hobby right so take it as far as you want and learn from the many mistakes you'll make. Good luck.
 
I'm going to put in my opinion here. Before anyone gets on my case for being an elitist, I am simple stating my opinion on heat treatment, and how I do it. Anyone is free to do as they wish, but Matt asked for other peoples advice to a new knifemaker...so I am offering mine.

Making a knife by hand is an excellent start....probably the best start. Some expert makers have never progress past this point.You can get a knife as good as possible without one thing more than simple hand tools.
However, doing the HT with improvised tools ( such as a one brick forge), and improvised quenchants, is not going to give you the results desired. I would send the blades out for HT as long as necessary until you have the ability or desire to do your own Heat treatment. At that point you can decide what level of equipment you want to invest in making or purchasing to do the blades you make. The point I am trying to make is :
Why would you put your best efforts into making the best blade you can, and then subject it to some less than controllable heat treating process.

If making simple shop tools with 1080, getting the blade a bit beyond non-magnetic and dunking it in something you have on the shelf that looks like it could work as a quenchant might suffice, but if you want the pride of having made the best knife you are capable of, get the best Heat Treatment that you are capable of...and that often includes farming it out. If you are going to use anything beyond 1080, it will take better equipment than a coffee can or one brick forge to do the HT with. Stainless steels require a HT oven.

Also, note that many of the big name folks who get the really big bucks....send all their blades to an expert to be heat treated. They know the value of having the pros do it right.

I still send many of my stainless blades off for HT, even though I have all the equipment I need for the job. The person I use has done it for longer than many of you have been alive, and the results are perfect every time. If I have a single blade, small batch, or a prototype I do it myself. If I want 20 CPM-154 fillet blades heat treated with cryo to Rc 60-61 and want to be assured they are all identical...I send it out.

Matt, I will do your blade myself, in a programed HT oven, with cryo.

Stacy
 
When I first started making knives I had the same ideas as you. Everything done myself, so I bought some books and started. I managed to screw up alot of steel with not much good results. Then a friend turned me on to this forum, and learned to slow down and take one thing at a time. With the wealth of knowledge here there is no reason to jump into things headlong and get yourself frustrated. I don't post alot but I'm on this forum everyday and read every post, now I can do everthing myself with the cofidence that every piece I make, almost, is top quality and will last its owner for years.
 
Stacy I know you're going to do the one I'm working on now. I'm just thinking about ones I do after this.
 
bladsmth said:
if you want the pride of having made the best knife you are capable of, get the best Heat Treatment that you are capable of...and that often includes farming it out.
Stacy
Click to expand...

I have nothing but respect for Stacy and am NO WHERE NEAR his abilities. But I think this statement contradicts itself. With this thought a person could go to the extreme and "farm out" someone to do to the design, another to grind, another to HT, and another for the handle and say "look what I made".

But if you want to honestly say "Look what I made", then you have to learn the skills and have the tools to make it. And no, it won't be the best on the market but it will be the best that YOU have done. I personally didn't get into knifemaking so someone else could make them for me. This is a hobby that I very much enjoy because I can say "Look waht I made". Of course I'm not refering to SS which is why I don't work with it.
My humble thoughts.
 
I can see what you're saying and I'm not disagreeing with you either because I do want to learn and do everything to go from a piece of stock to a finished knife all on my own. However your comparison is a bit on the extreme side, considering that the HT is just one step in the knife making process. Is it that much different than say sending out a bunch of steel to be waterjet cut to make a dozen of the same knives?

A comparison would be if you were a furniture or cabinet maker and do all the wood working yourself but lets say you have a buddy down the street with a spray booth who puts the varnish on it. Can it be said that that person didn't make the furniture because someone else did one step?
 
bladsmth said:
Some expert makers have never progress past this point.You can get a knife as good as possible without one thing more than simple hand tools.
Click to expand...

And just to nit-pick a tiny little bit... they'd tell you that switching to power tools wouldn't be progress, but regress! :)
(New makers reading this, if you've never googled Arpad Bojtos, do it now.) :thumbup:
 
I would say start doing everything, including HT. That way, in the beginning your blades may not be the nicest and it won't hurt as much as when your blades are really nice and you start learning to HT and ruining blades.

Depends on your personal perspective. If you just want to build knives explicitly to sell right off the bat, send them out. I make knives primarily for myself - not only to have useful tools but to learn a skill and craft.
 
Pardon the hijack but to Stacy, What is the tools, ovens, and cryno equipment to do it professionally. Go through a pro treatment for 154cm. A lot is writen about low end, little about high end DIY. BTW my attitude is if a man did it so can I. Nothing ventured nothing gained. I ht my own L6 and with the exception of a puma knife I own I find my blades are better than any other factory knifes I own and I own a lot. Give it your best shot, my guess you will be pleased. My 2c.
 
To explain a bit on my answer:
Please remember that his question was regarding his next knives....not his knife making forever.
Also, Remember that he has no equipment, limited access to any power tools, is doing stock removal by hand, has no experience in heat treatment, and has limited funds.

With that combination, sending the next few knives out would allow him time and money to make more knives, and learn more about knifemaking. In the future,as he progresses, he can build or buy HT equipment, but right now he does not need it.

An even better scenario would be for a local maker to offer Matt an invitation to bring his next blades over and learn heat treatment first hand.

Stacy
 
Here's what I suggest... if you want to do your own heat treating and don't have a lot of money then invest in a forge with a thermocouple, buy a quality quenchant and a lot of the same type of steel. Research the best practices pertaining to your steel choice and HT, test, HT, test test test test until you can predict what will happen if you change a variable. If you want to make things the best you can, you'll have to test test test. You can make a nice propane forge for about $75, a PID and thermocouple will run you about $60 or so if you catch a good deal on Ebay.

I personally don't see anything wrong with farming out HT to a pro. If you'll notice, a lot of makers use a Paul Bos HT AS a selling point. Some go so far as to put a Paul Bos logo on their blade!

Sabu, a "pro" system would include at the very least good electric furnace or temp controlled forge, proper quenching (oil, plates, fans), cryo system (liquid nitrogen) and a hardness tester. Access to a lab to analyze your results with a microscope would be a huge plus also.
 
Well I'm not poor guys :). I just don't have much as far as knife making equipment goes as I recently took an interest to it. And starting out would prefer not to buy thousands of dollars worth of equipment on a hobby I don't even know if I'll become proficient at. I think most hobbies start out as getting what you need to get by and as time goes on you wind up sinking more and more money into your hobby. I mean if I were going to take up fishing I can probably don't need a 20K bass boat and another 5K in rods, reels, and lures my first few times out ;)
 
The saying "Jack of all trades, but a master of none" comes to mind.
My opinion is that as a beginner it is better to master the processes a bit at a time and get help when needed. I say don't try to do everything until you feel you're ready.
 
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Yeah the more I'm thinking about it the more I'm leaning towards the idea of having some of the HT done for me. At least for a while, when I can start banging out knifes a little faster and wouldn't mind destroying my work then maybe I'll start getting into the HT aspect. I've already had a family member ask if I can make them a knife when I get the hang of what I'm doing. Assuming I can make a decent looking knife then I wouldn't feel bad about giving them a knife. I'll at least know that the steel itself will be hardened correctly and the knife should hold up to it's job. But I've spent about a month to get the one I'm working on now ready for HT. I'm not ready to work for a month or so on a knife only to screw it up or destroy it just to see if it's done right.
 
just test the blade well before you put the handle and such on it, so if you screw up the heat treat you can go back and fix it, i runined a knife i spent a lot of time on because i screwed up the heat treat.

if you have a blade you think you got perfect and couldnt stand to mess it up then i would say look for somone else to heat treat it.

but i have made some that i am very happy with by heat treating them in a camp fire, fanning the flames with an old disk sled and quenching in used motor oil.

its an art, it just takes practice and trial and error to gain confidence.

i have to say im in your shoes experience wise. just somtimes you should play it safe but you also have to know that somtimes you gotta race.

-hodges
 
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