Whatever happened to San Mai steel?

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Oct 20, 2000
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Some time ago, this particular three-layer steel was the rage. In recent years, it had sort of fizzled out.

The Japanese seem to have a fascination for the San Mai which they use quite liberally for their swords and daggers.

I recall Cold Steel having produced several knives with the San Mai steel. Why has the interest in San Mai blades taken a dip? Or am I wrong?
 
I heard that Cold Steel was having quality control problems with the laminate, plus it was expensive.

There doesn't seem to be that much facination with it, I have two Cold Steel San Mais that I've tried to sell with no success.

Thomas
 
Excellent but expensive. There are still some swordsmiths (Japanese & American) who still use sanmai method in constructing their swords/knives (tanto).
 
I guess the traditional san mia with just one layer on each side would look kind of plain. That is why when I put a core in the center of 52100, I will usually have a variety of damascus on the sides with some pattern manipulation. The ladder pattern looks good when done that way. And you can also use what ever kind of steel you want on the outside as long as the center is some good high carbon knife steel.
 
It works fine, but the historical reason (in Japan at least) was likely more of an economic thing, while retaining some of their objectives of what a sword should be able to do, and not intended for performance "advantages."

In fact, most old swords that are made with laminate constructions can bend like taffy compared to a good non-laminate. This was seen as a positive thing in old Japan...you can straighten a bent blade on the field, as long as it doesn't break. In addition, much of the steel created by tatara is not very high quality, but was still important enough to see use. Laminate constructions are a good way to combine lower-grade steel (lower C) and higher grade steel (higher C) into a single blade without causing the edge retention (an important thing to Japanese swords) to dwindle from *significant* carbon migration/diffusion which you can get if you use it in a pattern-welded billet. In addition, the lower potential hardness of the outside helps prevent crack propagation when a sword is not given post-quench stress relief or temper.

That's more of the older side when relating to Japanese blades. Modern stuff often uses moderate to high carbon material for core, sides, and edge (honsanmai is actually 4 parts, not just one piece core-edge with slab sides). In this event, the entire thing can be quite hard and solid, much closer to a single piece of steel in overall hardness (heat treat is also a bit easier to get consistent when these tolerances are close and roughly known).
 
The Scandanvians use laminated blades a good deal. Helle uses them, as do most of the others in at least some of their blades. I have two Cold Steel knives, one in San Mai folder and a very early model of the Trailmaster in Carbon V. The San Mai blade is ever so much better, IMO, than the Carbon V junk, but the Kraton scales stink. The Trailmaster just generally stinks.
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
San Mai = :barf:

Thats why you do not see it around anymore.

Any other questions?

Brownie

You should tell that to Murray Carter (MS) who uses his own San Mai almost exclusively.

His knives are also some of the most durable, sharp and beautiful that I have ever owned.

Let's see, then there is a guy named Mike Snody who makes his own breed of San Mai and uses it in many of his knives. He also sells it to Brad Duncan who makes a lot with it.
 
cpirtle:

Custom makers who use the san mai method have better control over the finished product, hence no problem with your statements. I would imagine as well that they use better steels to begin with that the commercially produced products.

I was relating to the commercially available san mai from CS and other low end products most would be buying here.

A good high carbon tool steel will suffice just fine thank you.

Some here can afford the high end custom makers, most however will be prone to buying the garbage put out by the commercial makers [ as a rule ].

Might be a good heads up to make the distinction between a knife hand made in that flavor by known craftsman and the commercially available products out there, lest one read that it is something special, buy the commercial product and not be that thrilleed with the performance of same.

Have to keep in mind the crowd that reads here for the most part.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
cpirtle:

Custom makers who use the san mai method have better control over the finished product, hence no problem with your statements. I would imagine as well that they use better steels to begin with that the commercially produced products.

I was relating to the commercially available san mai from CS and other low end products most would be buying here.

A good high carbon tool steel will suffice just fine thank you.

Some here can afford the high end custom makers, most however will be prone to buying the garbage put out by the commercial makers [ as a rule ].

Might be a good heads up to make the distinction between a knife hand made in that flavor by known craftsman and the commercially available products out there, lest one read that it is something special, buy the commercial product and not be that thrilleed with the performance of same.

Have to keep in mind the crowd that reads here for the most part.

Brownie

That's the problem with statements (or lack thereof) like the one you made. You did exactly the same thing you're accusing me of.

Your comment was so short and lacking in any substance that you ruled out any San Mai as being quality.

Don't forget, many people on these forums start out with lower end products and migrate into higher end ones later - a bogus statement like yours may well keep them from looking at a Carter San Mai.

And BTW, Murray makes knives that start in the $150 range and go up from there. He makes 8" blade hunter/camp knives in the $200 range... that's certainly well within the reach of the majority of people on these forums, you can hardly buy a factory fixed blade of the same size for that price.

I realize that in the 6 months you have been here you have had your finger on the pulse of this forum, but in the future before you offer me advice you may want to make sure you're following it yourself.
 
Originally posted by thombrogan
Oh, yeah. Darryl Meier makes and sells damascus-clad 52100 for stock-removal knives.

I saw some knives with Darryl Meier damascus and they were awesome, can't find his own website though. How would you go about getting some?
 
TheBadGuy:

OOhhh, that is a sweet piece. Is that yours?


cpirtle: There are more people here who own 50.00 knives than the customs or ones that cost over 100.00. I wasn't advising anyone with the origianl posting, I was making my opinion known as to what I thought of San Mai.

I woud not own it no matter the maker or the dollar amount to begin with. Thats just an opinion like everyone elses here.

I did not say don't buy it [ that would be giving advice ]. And I'll stand on the original post, it is not seen around much, nor made by many as it is not that popular either in custom or commercial versions.

Think there might be a reason it never became hot?

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
cpirtle: There are more people here who own 50.00 knives than the customs or ones that cost over 100.00. I wasn't advising anyone with the origianl posting, I was making my opinion known as to what I thought of San Mai.

Want to bet?

I even gave you the benefit of the doubt and set the number at $100.
 
Lets see, I saw the poll, no need to give me a benefit of the doubt.

To get an accurate accounting, it would have to include everyone who is a member, not just those who post, wouldn't it?

A good poll nonetheless and it should be interesting at the least.

Must have touched a nerve with you with my opinion on San Mai apparently.

BTW--can you explain why San Mai has not ever been the hot steel of knife owners?
The market bears the fruit, san mai has never been very fruitfull to the masses.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
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