Whatever happened to San Mai steel?

cpirtle and Brownie (and others):

there IS a mix-up here, caused by a confusion of terminology. Brownie, I was going to make a similar post to cpirtle's original one, because there is kind-of 2 san mai's: San Mai, which is what Cold Steel uses, and then there is san mai (lower case), which just is a Japanese term for 3 layers. Now San Mai may indeed be crap, but one can't say that all san mai (3 layered steel) is crap. It is important to be clear in which one is referring to, San Mai or san mai. It isn't even clear in Golok's original post if he is referring to either one, or doesn't know the difference himself.
 
A week long and a cool prize? It'll generate enough posts to be statistically accurate to within a few %.

What "touched a nerve" with me is the fact that you posted in the thread and added absolutely nothing of value to it. You gave an opinion (clearly one not based on actual experience with the steel), and left it hanging out there for anyone who read it to draw their own conclusion.

Read everyone's post in this thread and then read yours, do you see a difference?


Why it's never been very popular.

Well, I would argue that it is popular but I can still tell you why it's not offered by everyone.

- Expensive to make
- Difficult to make

Also because it's a novelty in many ways. With modern improvements in heat treating and tempering there's not as much of a need for it unless you want the advantages of a rust resistant blade and the cutting edge of a carbon steel. (not to mention the flexibility of a leaf spring)

In the case of Mike Snody he did it so that people could buy Stellite products at a lower cost.

But, then why not say Damascus=:barf:, it's certainly arguable that there are better knife steels out there than Damascus.

San Mai serves a purpose in the market and a certain type of buyer. It's not for everyone but if that was the case we wouldn't have so many choices in our blade material.

There are plenty of things in the world that are great products and never go mainstream, there are also ones that suck and do go mainstream. Just because something does not get adopted by everyone does not mean it's no good and you can't believe everything you read... some things you ought to try for yourself.
 
Hi Guys
I dont know what Cold Steel uses as San-Mai now, but I have an original Magnum Tanto that has been used and abused for 15yrs + and is still in good condition.Its not new anymore but still cuts like crazy.
Phil
 
Crayola, Cold Steel's San Mai is supposed to be Carbon V core with a 420 (could be AUS6 or something too) outer layer. It is 3 layers.

Based on the specs it should be decent unless they have problems with the weld.

fullplate, glad yours has worked out for you!
 
It will be statistically accurate based on those who post only, not on the total members of the forum, no more or less.

No, don't see any difference betwen my opinion and others, the poll isn't about who has or likes san mai steel but the cost of their knives.

Two different subjects. And again, the results are only accruate as to the responders.

Do you need to add value to ones opinion?

More importantly, where did your assumption and statement that the opinion was not based on my actual experiences with that type of steel come from?

It would be a guess, but I'd have to say that I have sold more knives, sharpened more knives and touched more knives in my lifetime than yourself. That could be proven wrong but it's unlikely unless you have handled the volume I have over the last decade by your profession.

You apparently did not like the opinion, to the point that someone is now going to be the proud owner of a nice knife case.

This difference of opinion will have generated a nice prize for someone, so there is a positive side to the debate.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
It will be statistically accurate based on those who post only, not on the total members of the forum, no more or less.
Click to expand...

You don't need a poll of all 3,000 members to draw a statistical conclusion.

Originally posted by brownie0486
No, don't see any difference betwen my opinion and others, the poll isn't about who has or likes san mai steel but the cost of their knives.
Click to expand...

I was talking about your statement in this thread, not the other one. Everyone else that has posted in this thread had some helpful information to assist in the answering of the question. Your response was a nonsensical :barf: that added nothing to discussion.

Originally posted by brownie0486
More importantly, where did your assumption and statement that the opinion was not based on my actual experiences with that type of steel come from?
Click to expand...

Your statements continue to show that you know nothing about San Mai. First of all, it is not a steel, it is a combination of steels. San Mai is only as good as the steel it is made from.

Someone telling me they had San Mai made from a center core of 420J2 and 440a outer layers would be garbage.

But someone telling me they have San Mai with a Stellite core layered between 440c, or 1095 layered between 440c I would definitely pay attention.

How can you possibly argue that 1095 layered in 440c = :barf: ??

Originally posted by brownie0486
It would be a guess, but I'd have to say that I have sold more knives, sharpened more knives and touched more knives in my lifetime than yourself. That could be proven wrong but it's unlikely unless you have handled the volume I have over the last decade by your profession.
Click to expand...

I don't care.

Regardless of how many knives you've been in contact with you obviously know little about the topic of conversation.

Originally posted by brownie0486
You apparently did not like the opinion, to the point that someone is now going to be the proud owner of a nice knife case.

This difference of opinion will have generated a nice prize for someone, so there is a positive side to the debate.
Click to expand...

Your opinion was wrong, is this not the place to debate opinions? You made a statement and I asked you to back that statement up because I do not believe your statement was even remotely true.

I was planning on giving that case away for a while now, I have two and they're just taking up space. Seemed like a good opportunity :)



I'm done with this debate, I have given you several opportunities to justify your statements and answered all of your questions directly. You have done nothing to back them up but try to redirect the conversation.

Explain to me why San Mai = :barf: and we can move on with life.
 
To add confusion, if not light, didn't I read somewhere here in BF that, over time, Cold Steel has used different steels to make what they called "San Mai" ?
 
Cold Steel doesn't use Carbon V in their San Mai. From what I have been told (I think I even recall a thread in the short-lived Cold Steel forum) that they use AUS-8A for the centre piece and 420J2 for the side pieces.
 
cpirtle stated:
"You don't need a poll of all 3,000 members to draw a statistical conclusion."

You certainly do if you want to be accurate relative all the members here. Otherwise it is only statistically correct to the number of responders to the poll, not the group as a whole.

"Your response was a nonsensical that added nothing to discussion."

It added my opinion on san mai steel, your opinion was that it was nonsensical, which you are entitled to as well.

"Your statements continue to show that you know nothing about San Mai."

And what statement leads you to believe this?

"Regardless of how many knives you've been in contact with you obviously know little about the topic of conversation."

and you base that statement on something I haven't spoken? I'm impressed with your cognitive powers to say the least.

"Your opinion was wrong, is this not the place to debate opinions?"

Thats your opinion of my statement which you are entitled to. And we are debating the issues aren't we?

"You made a statement and I asked you to back that statement up because I do not believe your statement was even remotely true."

Hence the debate.
To back up my opinion of san mai, lets see. First, not many makers out there working in this medium. If the interest for san mai anything were of consequence more makers, custom and commercial, would be producing it to meet the demand from the general public [which there isn't ]. The public has never taken to san mai in great numbers. You mentioned the same could be said for damascus, not quite sir. Many custom and commercial entities make some form of damascus steel, there is a market for it. Though not as much as the general materials found like the tool or stainless steels, still we see many points of contact available for damascus, unlike san mai.


"You made a statement and I asked you to back that statement up because I do not believe your statement was even remotely true."

I just did, for the first time in this threat. Until just now I had not explained why or how I based that opinion in fact. The facts speak for themselves, it is not popular with the masses, never caught on and became popular, and continues to be a very small niche in the knife world. Still believe my statement was incorrect? Please show me the masses of knife enthusiasts who demand this steel be made by commercial and custom makers if you can. Giving a few known custom makers who produce it as you had initially does not make it popular.

Crayola: I believe you are correct relatve Cold Steel and their San Mai steel. Even they do not produce many models in their lineup of this material. If the demand was there, they would have more models availabe to meet that demand.

Thomas Linton: I believe that may also be correct but model specific.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
To back up my opinion of san mai, lets see. First, not many makers out there working in this medium. If the interest for san mai anything were of consequence more makers, custom and commercial, would be producing it to meet the demand from the general public [which there isn't ]. The public has never taken to san mai in great numbers. You mentioned the same could be said for damascus, not quite sir. Many custom and commercial entities make some form of damascus steel, there is a market for it. Though not as much as the general materials found like the tool or stainless steels, still we see many points of contact available for damascus, unlike san mai.

[/B]
Click to expand...

Other than the fact that it has not become as popular as other steels, is there some technical or performance reason that you think it = :barf: ?

There are many examples of quality products or processes which simply did not sell well for reasons other than technical competency. Because of this it is impossible to base meaningful statements about a product's performance off of sales data or who is working with it.

To take the same logic to the other extreme, does the fact that Chinese 420 cheapies are manufactured and purchased in greater numbers than anything else mean that they are better? Of course not.

That being said, I'm not a believer in the laminated steel for most applications. I can think of a few areas where it might be beneficial, but for general usage I'll just take a single-layer blade.
 
fishbulb:

The performance gain of the material over quality tool/stainless steels marketed worldwide has not really ever been worth the effort to produce it, customers have not really taken to it in general, and it has no real advantages over other better quality steels generally.

The main advantage and higher sales of the 420 series has been price point. There are more people with little or no knowledge of blade steels who prefer to buy a knife based on price alone than the type of steels used to make it or any potential performance gains.

It's mainly a niche steel, originally hyped by commercial marketers as having better performance parameters than the 420 series or other steels, which may or may not be true dependant on who made it and what steels were used.

The marketing was generally hyped to get people to think if they invested in this type of steel, their knives would be as tough as the original japanese blades centuries ago. That marketing hype has not been successful relatively speaking and for the most part has become a niche steel for those enamored with it's purported performance enhancements.

Thats just my experience through retail sales over the last decade. Initially people jumped on the bandwagon, bought the marketing hype and then eventually left that market to languish for the most part.

You will always have many more people who are willing to spend less for a knife than more.

Knife sales in general do not support the theory that the majority understand the difference in performance of various steels, nor care to know. They look at the knives by pricepoint, knowing how much they are willing to spend which dictates their choices.

If you look at vendors tables at the shows, the ones selling less expensive knives are usually doing well while the higher end tables are not being inundated by the general public realtive sales when they see the price tags.

Brownie
 
A few weeks ago I got the Fallkniven's U2 small folder (blade 64 mm) with blade in san mai. Blade is a laminate with a powder steel called SGPS (Super Gold Powder Steel) as a core, and 420J2-sides. The powder steel is similar to S30V, having 1.40 C, 15.00 Cr, 2.80 Mo, 2.00 V, etc.
The powder steel is hardened to 62 HRC!
I am now testing the knife.

Franco
 
Franco G:

I think you will like the Fallkniven.

I've passed by them on purchases so far due to the steel used. No 420 series in anything I'll carry, but that's a personal preference. I really like their designs.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486

If you look at vendors tables at the shows, the ones selling less expensive knives are usually doing well while the higher end tables are not being inundated by the general public realtive sales when they see the price tags.
Click to expand...

Yes, and this is precisely why it is invalid to say that "There is no great public demand for (product); therefore (product) = :barf: . Unless I am mistaken that is the primary reasoning behind your dislike of laminated steel, at least as far as you have explained it.

I am curious if there is any technical reason that you do not like it, ignoring consumer demand or market dynamics.
 
The basic dislike comes from handling the CS knives and the idea that people have that it has some sort of mystical powers associated with the ancients of japan.

That and the fact that a good carbon tool steel blade, properly heat treated will outperform about any of the laminates.

In one instance I saw the laminate breaking down from lateral stresses applied to the knife. Like any other knife would, it was bent from the abuse, but with a good tool steel or stainless you do not have to worry about such things.

We bent the knife back to as straight as we could and the laminate looked like a stack of pancakes.

If it is not a laminate steel, I need not worry about such failings. The laminates are supposed to be superiorly strong, they are not when compared to other steels in the same price range in my opinion.

Similiar to buying a Ford and getting a lemon, then never willing to try another Ford. The laminates I have handled were not superior cutters and most had 420 series as an element which I will not carry or use.

I've shyed away from the Fallknivens as they are laminates but I really like their designs and believe they are a better quality than most laminates. Under hard use, I do not trust them.

Granted, I wil probably never ever have the opportunity make one fail due to hard use, the sight of the laminate separating was unexpected and a big disappointment.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
. The laminates I have handled were not superior cutters and most had 420 series as an element which I will not carry or use.
Click to expand...

Interesting, that last post really helped clarify the technical basis for your position.

However, I am a bit curious about the above statement. It seems that 420 stainless has a number of properties that would make it ideal for the outer layers of a laminate, so I find it interesting that you have singled it out as a material to avoid.

It is very stain resistant, quite flexible, and (frankly) dirt cheap. As the outer layers are not actually doing any of the cutting, the poor edge holding which 420 is known for would not appear to be a significant drawback.

Discounting the particular problems with laminated blades which you addressed previously, what is it about 420 steel in particular that would cause you to avoid it entirely?

Also, do you also avoid knives which feature 420 as liners or similar hardware, or is your dislike of it limited to the blade itself?
 
I find the 420 series to fit your analysis about right on.

In a knife of only 420 series, it is too soft, tends to bend easily, and not hold an edge worth crap.

In the laminates, it was my impression that the steel was too different in structure from the harder steel used as a core and that it was suspect as the culprit to the laminate not holding onto the core.

Very good stain resistance certainly. Very soft and not usually tempered enough to make for hard use. Sharpens too easily, dulls too quickly [ actually these two situations go hand in hand ]. If it is hardened further it becomes brittle, hence it is left too soft to be an effective potential life saver EDC.

So we get too soft won't hold an edge or we get too hard and brittle.

I won't have anything to do with 420, it's best quality is it's anti oxidation and corrosive properties. Anybody trusting the 420 steels for locks on liners needs to rethink their choices.

There are just too many steels out there which are far superior to this stuff for the same money or less that won't fail as fast, and will stay sharper longer.

We see 8-40.00 knives made of this material. You get what you pay for in quality. If it is not to save your butt or be heavily relied upon, then it would not matter much as they can be thrown away.

In the bush, on a survival adventure it is the last steel I would consider.

I noticed on another thread you like the tool steels as I do. It takes very little effort to keep them sharp, they hold an edge very well as a rule, and take much less care to keep rust at bay than most think.

Brownie
 
The only preformance difference I've found between an O1 blade and a 'O1 sandwiched with softer material' blade is the amount of force nessisary to bend (the san mai flexes alittle easier), and the likelyhood of the blade snapping when stressed (the san mai is less prone to snap). The edge holding was almost identical.

Everything is dependant on the steels used, the heat-treatment, the geometry, and the integrity of the weld, of course.

Brownie, you really should check out Murray Carter's work, I suspect his blades could change your opinions upon the validity of composite blades as one of many ways to make a good knife.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top