What's a good survival dog??

[X-Head]

In a survival situation, I think everyone who survives is going to lose some weight regardless how plentiful game is. It is only reasonable to expect that your dog would too. If a 215 lb dog can hunt bear, boar, deer, etc., then to me, he's worth his weight, and I would think he would be capable of hunting a squirrel or rabbit. Besides, there's nothing a bloodhound can track that a Fila can't. He provides round the clock personal protection, which a scent hound can't. A Fila will provide perimeter detection and alert, being able to detect both 2 & 4 legged intruders as well as a scent hound and quicker than other breeds. He's capable of hunting (and in most cases, single handedly bringing down) a variety of big game. He can even herd livestock, although you may not need this skill in a survival situation. He's not just a jack of all trades; he's darn near the best at every one of them. Plus, the avg. weight is more like 135-170 for males. You can GET a big one if you want one, but they're not all like that.

[This message has been edited by X-Head (edited 09-18-2000).]

 

[e_utopia]

I still vote for a Siberian Husky, hands-down, every single time. Huskies are the strongest for their size, meaning you get the most bang for your buck (your 'buck' being food supplies, in this case). A Husky can bring down any reasonable-sized animal, not that you're likely to be approached by one if you have any dog with you. They can also live off mice, squirrels, rabits, moles, and other small game, as wolves do in the wild, primarily. Being bred in one of the harshest environments where humans actually live, the Husky is uniquely adapted to survival - doing the most with the least supplies. And they are highly competent watchdogs (in strange situations, they do not fully go to sleep for much time at all; watch the ears as you walk around, if you think different). Many 2-legged intruders think twice simply do to the resemblance to wolves (and, at night, the abnormally bright glow of the eyes, do to an adaptation for dealing with extreme cold - spooks even long-time Husky owners, when the light hits just right and you aren't expecting it). Plus, they are highly social and very capable at communicating fairly complex ideas (more than many humans I know

). All I can say is, you're welcome to bring something large like a Fila, but I'll take two Huskies and still need less food for them, while having at least double the canine intelligence to back me up (they also naturally take turns sleeping when there are two, so they are more rested during the day).

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

 

[chad234]

JB,
If you're talking about strength/ size ratio the American Pitbull Terrior is the undisputed winner in that class. I base that statement on observations of load pulling competitions, as well as having read extensively on the subject of K-9 in Law Enforcement and Military. I am not a big advocate of the breed (I am sure there are fine examples of the breed out there) but from an objective standpoint I don't think that any other dog has the strength (or offensive/ defensive ability) in such an efficient package.
Just my .02, ymmv

Be safe,
Chad

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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
"Those who hold the thin blue line keep order, and insure that anarchy and chaos will not prevail." Chad (1992)
"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. He who dies by the sword did not train hard enough" -Chad (1999)
chad234@email.com

 

[MNH]

X-Head,

"President Clinton learned there were 100,000 cattle guards in Colorado. Since Clinton
was so upset with ranchers' protests over his grazing policies, he told U.S. Secretary of
Interior Bruce Babbitt to fire half the cattle guards immediately. Before Babbitt could
proceed with the President's wishes, Colorado representative Pat Schroeder intervened
with a request that before any were fired, they would be given six months of retraining."
-- October 26, 1994, Newcastle Reporter January 1995, New Mexico Stockman
Magazine


Reminds me of the joke I heard in Colorado many years ago:

Why won't cattle cross a Cattle Guard?

Because it reminds them of a Barbecue grill.


Sorry, off topic

Mike

 

[dogboye]

Similar to the good survival knife... the one that you have with you.

But, in all seriousness, it should be a dog that has been trained well. At least then you have a decent chance of not scaring away any game that you happen to be around.

Anything the size of an Elkhound or larger is going to be good protection from any animal in north america, IMO, simply because of their noise and speed. Well, maybe not a pack of wolves... but if you're that far into it, you're probably not going to get out even if you have a Fila dog. I would also want one that has enough coat to not freeze in a cold situation, but little enough that I could attain some warmth from it by huddling together (that I have actually used already a couple of times). My Rott works better for this than the Elkhound I tried it with. The Elkhound was kinda like huddling up next to a big empty sweater; no added warmth. Useless.

I would imagine a Husky would be similar when it came to huddling together for warmth. Not to knock them, by any means. I would also want a dog that was not "independent," like Huskies tend to be. Well, at least the ones that I've been around; I doubt they had been properly trained, though.

But, at this point, I'm just rambling. In seriousness, my first line at the top is probably the best answer.

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iktomi

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 09-19-2000).]

 

[Shawn R Sullivan]

Chad234,
I completly agree with you. The weight that a Pit Bull can move is amazing. I have a good book on Pit Bulls at home. Its loaded with great information about the breed. I will post more info tonight. I also have a great book on working dog breeds by ( I think) Dr. Karl Semantic sp?. He talks about the Fila and what a great breed it can be. He also talks about the Argentino Dogo. Its an amazing breed as well.

X-Head thanks for all the links about the Fila's. They are a breed that I have been interested in for quite a while.
Shawn

 

[e_utopia]

Chad, sorry, but Huskies have that title.

Rockspyder, yup, a dog is only useful in a survival situation with training. Without, it is one more mouth to feed, without providing any help. Not that I would mind, under normal circumstances, but in a survival situation, that's a problem.

Dogs are not exactly impressive as 'weapons,' when you consider what sort of stopping power you can easily strap to your hip. The key thing is what other animals will think of the dog from a distance. Huskies have very similar smell to wolves, and make the same sorts of vocalizations, so other animals will tend to give them a wide berth.

As for getting heat from the dog, this is possible from a Husky. They were used to help heat igloos by the Eskimos who originally bred them. They can also survive buried in snow (literally, they'll sleep out in a snowstorm, and all you'll see is a mount with a jet of steam coming out where their breath keeps a tunnle melted in the snow). To converve heat, they curl up in a ball, with their tail covering their face - straightened out, their lower chest and abdomen radiate quite a but of heat when they lay down to sleep (when moving, less blood goes to these areas, so heat loss is minimized).

Huskies are only 'independent' when not trained. If they are not made to feel part of the family, they will not act that way. Of course, being so close to wolves, you have to remember when training a Husky that it will respond to training which is tailored to be similar to how wolves interact.

Ideally, I would want a pack of wolves with me, but that is generally a bit unreasonable

. I'd 'settle' for a pair of Huskies any day.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

 

[tortoise]

A lot of attention is being paid to a dog "taking down" a large animal, or defending you from predators. While there are documented cases of this type of behavior a FAR more likely scenario is that the dog would actually draw predators in. Many campers have learned this the hard way when their dog came charging back into camp with a bear that he agitated in hot pursuit. Don't harbor any illusions about wolves either. One very large, aggressive dog vs. one wolf, maybe. But the dog is highly unlikely to encounter a solo wolf and against a pack he has no chance. It seems to me that if you are surviving successfully in the wilderness, then a dog would do what they do back in the world, make a good companion and help keep you as close to sane as you started out. If your situation is: may live/may not it's unlikely that any type of dog would know how to make fire, build suitable shelter, etc. to keep you alive. Any breed would however be happy to use you for food after you kicked off.

 

[ohoisin]

say what you like a chiuaiau that can find taco bell food is a god bet.

seriously though i had a elkhound/collie mix that was great in the woods and slept under a pile of snow in winter. she killed and ate whatever she liked mostly small game.

my dream dog though is an irish wolfhound check this site http://www.demage.com/infoang.html

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I am the proud owner of a three year old Rhodesian Ridgeback bitch called Bo (short for Boedicea). These hound dogs were originally bred in South Africa by Boer farmers to protect homesteads from wild animals and raiders, hunt game and keep lions at bay until they were dispatched. A multi-role dog bred for function rather than looks. Check out this link and have a surf for photographs if you are really interested.
http://www.rrcus.org/history.html

She has sprung to my defence a few times when she thought someone was up to no good and without losing it or attacking she has stopped grown men in their tracks. I know she would protect me from any animal she thought would harm me or my family. She moves fast and has an instinct to trip other dogs as she runs along side (scares the cr*p out of their owners) she is dominant and confident but never aggressive. If I had to be anywhere there were large predators (2 or 4 legs) other than just quarry, this is the dog I would choose. Only place I'd consider another dog would be high up or near the poles, she has a short coat!

Iain



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"I'm arm'd with more than complete steel - The justice of my quarrel." Christopher Marlowe

 

[aquatimer]

I also am the proud owner of Rhodesian Ridgebacks(2)Simba 6yrs 97 lbs and Kinju 4yrs 116 lbs. Attributes:Can survive drastic temp changes,go w/o water for days,strong,agile,fast,webbed paws for swimming,etc....
John

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Originally posted by aquatimer:
I also am the proud owner of Rhodesian Ridgebacks(2)Simba 6yrs 97 lbs and Kinju 4yrs 116 lbs. Attributes:Can survive drastic temp changes,go w/o water for days,strong,agile,fast,webbed paws for swimming,etc....
John

Surviving drastic changes in temperature seems to me to be important to me, does everyone else agree? I know Boxers definitely suffer in the heat, and don't like extreme cold either. I wonder about Huskies in the heat, how do they do? The Ridgeback seems almost like a perfect-bred survival dog, I'd consider it seriously. I'm surprised we got so far into this discussion before someone suggested the Ridgeback! It *is* a survival dog, not a guard dog, or sporting dog, or military dog, or fighting dog, or ...

The Fila is a pretty impressive dog, but from talking to owners, seems a bit too agressive for me to consider it highly for a survival dog.

e_utopia, where are you getting your pound-for-pound strength info? Like a few of the other posters here, I believe pretty strongly that this title goes to the American Pitbull, no question. I know this breed wins strength competitions in their weight class, and am fairly sure they get the p4p nod as well. Where have you heard otherwise?

Joe

 

[Shawn R Sullivan]

The two books that I have are,
Pit Bulls and tenacious gaurd dogs by Dr. Carl Semencic. http://myweb.li.net/~semencic/ Check out his site he has information on lots of dogs not just Pit Bulls.
Another good book on Pit Bulls is The Working Pit Bull by Diane Jessup. http://myweb.li.net/~semencic/

E_utopia,
Are you talking about the Alaskan Husky or the Siberian Husky? Check out this site http://www.iwpa.net/ Its the International Weight Pull Association then go to Maximum weights pulled. The results are interesting.
Neither one of our favorite dogs are the strongest, for max weight pulled on a non snowy surface the American Bull Dog is the strongest. For a snowy surface the Alaskan Malamute is the strongest.
Shawn

Sorry, I put in some wrong information and had to come back and edit it.
Shawn

[This message has been edited by MrCas (edited 09-20-2000).]

 

[e_utopia]

Sorry, don't have any websites for weight pulls, I've only watched them on TV. Any time the subject came up, the announcers would state that the Husky has the best pound for pound strength, and the results of those pulls agreed.

Huskies do better in warm temperature than I do, so I guess that's pretty much all that's necessary.

I've seen Huskies in 110-degree heat, and swimming in the ocean in February, in Maine.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Originally posted by MrCas:

Are you talking about the Alaskan Husky or the Siberian Husky? Check out this site http://www.iwpa.net/ Its the International Weight Pull Association then go to Maximum weights pulled. The results are interesting.
Neither one of our favorite dogs are the strongest, for max weight pulled on a non snowy surface the American Bull Dog is the strongest. For a snowy surface the Alaskan Malamute is the strongest.


[This message has been edited by MrCas (edited 09-20-2000).]

American Bulldog! Possibly worth considering as a survival dog too, no?

Shawn, you quoted max pulls, but the subject in question is pound-for-pound, not max. Using the average and not the max. for each category, from the website you cited, I believe the pound-for-pound strongest on wheels is the 30 pound pit bull, the pound-for-pound strongest on snow is the 70 pound American bulldog.

I did this just quickly in my head, but I think it's right. I didn't try re-doing this with the max numbers yet

Joe

 

[Shawn R Sullivan]

Joe thats correct. But as a serious surival dog which one would you want? A 30 pound Pit Bull or a 70 pound Bull dog? A 30 pound dog wouldn't eat nearly as much as a 70 pound dog. So it should be eaiser to keep the smaller dog alive, but how much of an assest would that small of a dog be to you? I think that we all agree that Pit Bulls are great fighters. They could definatly buy you time to escape if attacked by a predator. But could it track game? I dont know.
What makes Rhodesian Ridgebacks such a good survival dog? I know very little about them.

Shawn.

 

[GREENJACKET]

It seems to me most posts go for a power dog.

The Fela looks well strong and reminds me of the original St Bernard; until the Kennel Clubs bred them into the lumbering oafs that they are today.
Irish Wolf Hounds will bring down deer but prefer to work in pairs. Intelligent but well laid back.
Rhodesian Ridgebacks are tough, but more of a tough camp dog. When I was last in Southern Africa, it tended to be the farm terriers that did the hunting and got into trouble, while the Ridgeback stayed in camp, or with the vehicle, guarding. (Leopards would take them in the open.)
The Husky is a specialised breed, great hauler but too much of a pack animal to be mans best friend. Exstreme cold weather option.

All the above need big quantities of food to keep going. They will only hunt if tought. Few are as then they might worry sheep and get themselves shot. If not working stock they are all too often over pampered, become overweight and become just pets.

If we are talking survival here, then we need a dog survival ready; no training required. Its hard to stop a lurcher from hunting. Catching rabbits and small game are their dayly fun. In Africa they take snakes. They will keep catching until told to stop. Half a rabbit, or five mice are a full meal. They've often been used to poach small deer. Fighting larger dogs they tend to dance around them and nip; only going in for the kill once they have exhausted their adversary. They are just too fast for most things. They swim OK, and are not so heavy you cannot carry them.
Finaly, you are the boss and they want to please you, not their own egoes. They can always look sadder than you, to the point where you can only but smile.

Large dogs I love, and are great rescue dogs, or guard dogs. Wouldn't want a lurcher for rescue as they would be near useless.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Originally posted by MrCas:
Joe thats correct. But as a serious surival dog which one would you want? A 30 pound Pit Bull or a 70 pound Bull dog? A 30 pound dog wouldn't eat nearly as much as a 70 pound dog. So it should be eaiser to keep the smaller dog alive, but how much of an assest would that small of a dog be to you? I think that we all agree that Pit Bulls are great fighters. They could definatly buy you time to escape if attacked by a predator. But could it track game? I dont know.
What makes Rhodesian Ridgebacks such a good survival dog? I know very little about them.

Shawn.

Without question I don't consider myself an expert in this field. Just want to cover myself in case I commit any howlers

I have, however, talked to a lot of breeders, owners, and have interacted with a bunch of dog breeds.

I don't think I'd want a pitbull as a survival dog. The non-show types are bred mostly for gameness, a great characteristic but in this situation I'd rather have some hunting instincts built in.

An American bulldog doesn't seem like a bad choice at all -- to some extent, it plays a similar role to the Ridgeback in Africa. Both dogs are used to hunt game, and in packs used to hunt dangerous game (boars and lions, respectively). Both have some protective instincts. The Ridgeback is bred to take punishing climates and survival-type situations (lack of food, water, etc.), and I think the American Bulldog might have similar characteristics. The American Bulldog is also game, an all-around good characteristic.

Frankly, I'm not sure I personally would want any dog in a survival situation. And I'd put roles like defending me fairly low on my list, even if I did have one. I'd rather it help with catching food, and be tough enough to thrive in all kinds of climates. A small, well-trained hunting dog might be the best pick.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 09-20-2000).]

 

[e_utopia]

Aack, just post another post when you have new info. Got me all switched around trying to figure out how I missed that, then I looked at the edit date.

Anyway, I'm talking Siberian Husky, as I said in an earlier post. The max weights listed on the site you posted do not have comparisons, as they only showed Siberian Huskies on snow. I'd like to see the other dogs even try that - snow is a much more difficult surface (not only does the weight sink in, the dog's feet do as well, for a much more difficult task and a better approximation of survival conditions).

As for your question later down, I'd rather have two 50-lb Huskies than one 100-lb dog. Being able to team up would put them leagues above any single dog.

Greenjacket, Huskies really aren't specialised. They are great at pullin sleds, but only because they have the intelligence that task takes. They are also extremely social dogs. I can't think of a better example of "man's best friend." They seem more like a human child than a separate species, and are often more intelligent in many areas than a human child. Even living with them, they still seem to be telepathic in their ability to know precisely what their family members are thinking (as in, I decide to take the dogs for a walk and they run over, without me making and movement of any kind - we still haven't figured out how they do it).

Also, Huskies do not need very much food. More than a toy poodle, obviously, but not as much as you might expect. Huskies also naturally hunt, without being taught, and often will rid a camp area of nuisances, even if they are not good eating (I watched one spend an entire afternoon eating bees as they flew out of a hive, until the hive was empty - got tired of getting stung on occasion, I guess, and decided to do something about it

).

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

 

[King Tut]

I'd have to say I am perfectly happy with Bear my exremely smart (obeys hand commands) 85lb. 6 year old male Lab Retriever mix(he won't fetch for his life but he'll "Get the kitty." pretty darn quick." Misha my 5 month old 95 lb White Shephard bitch.(hasn't hit her groth spurt yet!) She's stupid and is being extremely difficult to train but is loyal and protective. She can't stand male dogs , except Bear.

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Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn my god do you learn.
C.S. Lewis