Whats so great about 1095 Steel

[pinnah]

I agree with you 100% I have 3 Old Timers and they are fantastic!

Does anybody know: Was the steel used in the Old Timer line heat treated the same as in the higher-priced Schrade lines? What was the RC of Schrade 1095 and how does that compare with, say, Case CV, Buck 420HC and GEC 1095. I'd be interested to know how close or far off the mark currently-produced carbon blades are.

Robb, here's my understanding off the top of my addled memory banks. Facts here are all spurious as lifted from reporting in forums and catalogs (not sure which is less reliable). Happy to see any of the following refuted/corrected. All numbers +/- something mumble


Carbon Steels
-------------
Schrade USA/Schrade-Walden: 58Rc
GEC 1095: 58Rc
Case CV: 56Rc (now 58ish? that would be super cool!)
Opinel Carbon (X90C - 1086ish): 56Rc

Stainless Steels
---------------
Buck 440C (from back in the day): 58Rc
Buck 420HC: 58Rc
Opinel Inox (Sandvik 12C27): 58Rc
Schrade USA "Schrade +" (mostly 440A but then 420HC near the very end): 58Rc
GEC 440C: ?? (see: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/730419-GEC-440C-cutting-performance)
Case Tru-Sharp (420HC): 56Rc
Victorinox Inox: 54Rc (See: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/679189-Victorinox-Steel)

 

[goodeyesniper]

I agree that 1095 will take a fine edge, but i don't agree that it will take a finer edge than 154cm or 440c. The 1095 might take the finer edge quicker but just a little more time sharpening and the stainless will take just as fine of an edge. I have some knives in 154cm that will whittle hair. Take the time it takes you to clean and oil the 1095 and put that into sharpening the 154cm and you could have the same fine edge and it will hold it much longer.

I think you are over estimating what it takes to upkeep a carbon steel blade, lol. how long does it take you to wipe off a blade with your shirt or jeans? it takes me three seconds max. I'm pretty sure I can't get a hair whittling edge in three seconds.

oh, and I never oil my carbon steel.

 

[RobbW]

Robb, here's my understanding off the top of my addled memory banks. Facts here are all spurious as lifted from reporting in forums and catalogs (not sure which is less reliable). Happy to see any of the following refuted/corrected. All numbers +/- something mumble

Ha ha thanks pinnah. Great information with a funny disclaimer. That was an interesting read. For me, I see a big difference between Case Tru-Sharp and Buck's stainless. Even though they are the same steel, that difference between Cases's 56Rc and Buck's 58Rc is very noticeable to me in real-world use.

I spoke with Bob Dozier in person about his heat treat. He runs D2 at 60-61Rc. He said there is a big difference between steel that is heat controlled to a 2-point Rockwell spread and steel that is heat controlled to a 3-point spread. In other words, 59-61 is very different from 60-61. As I recall, the difference isn't just hardness, but consistency.

I hear from everyone I ask that Schrade worked wonders with 1095, and that they like it better than anyone else' 1095 (or 1095 variant). I'm now wondering if part of the reason is not just Schrade's higher Rockwell, but perhaps they held closer tolerances on the heat treat? Like, say, Schrade ran a 57-58Rc or even a 58-59Rc, while everyone else has a larger tolerance spread of 3 or more Rockwell points? I seem to recall that case runs 56-58Rc on CV (but admit that my memory could be completely off base on this--I'm kind of wondering aloud here). I wonder if that 56-58Rc spread vs. a 57-58Rc or even 58-59Rc spread could account for Schrade's success?

Just to be clear, I really like Case CV, I really like Buck's 420HC, Eye Brand's 1095, and I love GEC's 1095 and O1. I'm not bashing or degrading these other company's particular steels or heat treats. I'm just trying to get a more informed understanding of Schrade's reputation, which is born out in my own experience as a user.

In another vein, I would really love for a company to run 1095 as high as possible and sell a special run to knife knuts like us just to see how good it can get. We would all know it would lose toughness in the tradeoff and know that it was optimized for hardness and cutting. It would be cool to get thin blade geometry and acute edges that were optimized for cutting/slicing just to see the limits of 1095 hardness. Hey, a fella can wish, right?

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

I am fairly new to the knife game, so I have limited experience with outdoor stainless blades; the vast majority of my knives are 1095. Everyone says the high carbon blades are stronger for outdoor use and chip/roll less than stainless. They also say it is easier to sharpen; the caveat with "ease of sharpening" is that unless you actually know how to properly sharpen a blade it doesn't really matter how hard/soft the steel is because you're not going to get an edge. I suck at sharpening, so I can't get an edge on anything other than my Mora's. I have also had my 1095 knives develop surface rust right before my eyes. I want to get my hands on a good stainless outdoor knife so I can actually compare for myself

 

[knarfeng]

A steel will only get as sharp as it's smallest carbides and stainless blade steel will have larger carbides than simple carbon steels.

Don, I don't agree.
As long as your abrasive medium is harder than the carbides, the size of the carbide won't matter. You will grind right through them.

I do agree that a steel which does not contain carbides will retain a razor edge longer than an alloy which does contain carbides. Once the carbides are exposed, you lose the razor smoothness.

Newer Case CV is testing at 57-59 Rc hardness

Which model have you tested and where on the blade?
I have tested new Case CV blades and they did not measure that high. The blades which were crinked measured in the 40's (because they are softened so they can be bent.) But even straight blades only measured 56.

I measured on the tang, of course. Case says it is because even the tangs of uncrinked blades are softened in order to stamp the logo and that the blades are actually higher in hardness than the tang. But I have no actual measurements to confirm that. You have to measure hardness on an area which is a flat plate. For me that limits the measurement to the tang. Where are you measuring?

 

[Don Hanson III]

Don, I don't agree.
As long as your abrasive medium is harder than the carbides, the size of the carbide won't matter. You will grind right through them.

I do agree that a steel which does not contain carbides will retain a razor edge longer than an alloy which does contain carbides. Once the carbides are exposed, you lose the razor smoothness.


Which model have you tested and where on the blade?
I have tested new Case CV blades and they did not measure that high. The blades which were crinked measured in the 40's (because they are softened so they can be bent.) But even straight blades only measured 56.

I measured on the tang, of course. Case says it is because even the tangs of uncrinked blades are softened in order to stamp the logo and that the blades are actually higher in hardness than the tang. But I have no actual measurements to confirm that. You have to measure hardness on an area which is a flat plate. For me that limits the measurement to the tang. Where are you measuring?

Frank, the carbide thing maybe debatable, or maybe I just don't know how to explain it? I can get a fine grain carbon steel blade noticeably sharper than I can a stainless steel blade.

I tested the hardness of a new yellow handle 48 pattern. It was consistently at 58 Rc +/- 1 point along the length of it's blade. This was tested on the blade and not the tang. All the old ones I tested were on the blades also. I have a very small anvil on the hardness tester that works well on bevels, but testing a bevel isn't goin to give a 100% accurate reading

 

[akadave2]

Frank, the carbide thing maybe debatable, or maybe I just don't know how to explain it? I can get a fine grain carbon steel blade noticeably sharper than I can a stainless steel blade.

I tested the hardness of a new yellow handle 48 pattern. It was consistently at 58 Rc +/- 1 point along the length of it's blade. This was tested on the blade and not the tang. All the old ones I tested were on the blades also. I have a very small anvil on the hardness tester that works well on bevels, but testing a bevel isn't goin to give a 100% accurate reading

Its my experience that I can get a "toothier" edge on a stainless blade (not all), and it is really aggressive in cutting meat and foods etc. Not so good at shaving hair but its perfect for cutting food.

 

[knarfeng]

Frank, the carbide thing maybe debatable, or maybe I just don't know how to explain it? I can get a fine grain carbon steel blade noticeably sharper than I can a stainless steel blade.

I admit to having to work a lot harder on a carbide containing blade to get the same sharpness as a carbon steel blade. Most of the time it isn't an issue because I frequently go with a toothy edge. I find that a toothy edge works better for me for the things I do with a knife. (I end up using a knife to cut hard plastic a lot of times, so I frequently use a toothy edge on a more obliquely angled bevel. The oblique angle provides more support to the cutting edge.)

I tested the hardness of a new yellow handle 48 pattern. It was consistently at 58 Rc +/- 1 point along the length of it's blade. This was tested on the blade and not the tang. All the old ones I tested were on the blades also. I have a very small anvil on the hardness tester that works well on bevels, but testing a bevel isn't goin to give a 100% accurate reading

Thanks for that information. Good to know.

 

[mmarkh]

I like the patina and the care it involves to keep the blade nice. I like to care for my knives. I guess that seems strange?

 

[herisson]

Oh, well. Just my advice : try it, you'll like it. Just me again : one of the best blade steels ever is 1075 (XC75). Not the top of the pops, really ? Anyways, one of the best users for sure !

 

[black mamba]

I think I remember someone on the General thread tried 1095 at 66 or 67 HRc by just not tempering after heat treatment, in other words it was as hard as it could get. Probably pretty brittle, but they said it sliced and held an edge like mad.

 

[VANCE]

im having a hard time trying to wrap my head around the huge diffrence in patina in 2 knives off the same pattern....


both knives are carried in the same manner
handled only by me
never used in food prep

it seems i can look @ the boy's knife & it will rust. i even have some pitting on the bolsters.
my "charlow" on the other hand was apparently quenched in unicorn tears during the heat treat. it has never once even "look" like it was going to get a patina on it

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

If nothing else, I'd not be surprised if a small difference in blade finish made most of that difference.^^ Looks as if the patinated blade may have more irregularities in the finish (grind marks/pits/etc.). That's why polishing a blade can go a long way toward minimizing rusting and/or patination of a blade.

Assuming same steel (1095), small differences in heat treat are also known to affect corrosion resistance/patina potential, to some degree.

Also, just one exposure to a particular oxidizing agent (vinegar, fruit acids, etc.) can sometimes affect how fast/how much the blade will darken later. I'm seeing this on my Schrade 8OT, on which I forced a vinegar/hot water patina on the clip blade. Left the other two blades alone. Aside from some small spotting on the un-patinated blades, they look essentially like they did when new. The patinated clip blade has continued to darken gradually, past the initial exposure.


David

 

[midnight flyer]

I am surprised at how defensive some are about their preference for 1095.

I use 1095 and stainless, and don't feel married to either one. When I use a stainless knife, or a stain resistant knife such as a D2 steeled folder, I don't fee like a snob at all. Not arrogant, not faddish, and I don't feel like I am throwing away legacy or tradition because I appreciate its utility value.

When I use my carbon steeled blades, I don't feel like I am connecting back to the old craftsmen of yore, the simple folk that learned to appreciate what they had. You know the story... nothing fancy, just good, hardworking knives that didn't shine, but dang it, they got the job done. Kind of the way they pictured themselves in their own mind's eye, actually.

I use my knives pretty often and sometimes pretty hard on the job site. I feel lucky I have enough knives to pick one in the morning with the steel I want for the tasks at hand. I understand having an overall preference for one or another, but I just don't get the thinly veiled jibes at those that like stainless. Don't both have a place in our work day?

Robert

 

[coop1957]

Well said Robert. We are living in the Golden Age of blade steel.

 

[jth250]

I am surprised at how defensive some are about their preference for 1095.

I use 1095 and stainless, and don't feel married to either one. When I use a stainless knife, or a stain resistant knife such as a D2 steeled folder, I don't fee like a snob at all. Not arrogant, not faddish, and I don't feel like I am throwing away legacy or tradition because I appreciate its utility value.
When I use my carbon steeled blades, I don't feel like I am connecting back to the old craftsmen of yore, the simple folk that learned to appreciate what they had. You know the story... nothing fancy, just good, hardworking knives that didn't shine, but dang it, they got the job done. Kind of the way they pictured themselves in their own mind's eye, actually.

I use my knives pretty often and sometimes pretty hard on the job site. I feel lucky I have enough knives to pick one in the morning with the steel I want for the tasks at hand. I understand having an overall preference for one or another, but I just don't get the thinly veiled jibes at those that like stainless. Don't both have a place in our work day?

Robert

I agree if you can get a steel that performs better why not use it.

 

[pinnah]

I am surprised at how defensive some are about their preference for 1095.

You must be an Internet forum newbie!!!

Just kidding, obviously. But seriously, deeply held convictions about gear goes deep.

Two great references. The authors of one of th NOLS books advised against asking people who recently ourchased things for advice because all you would hear is them justifying how smart they were in their purchase.

Colin Fletcher said pick your camp stove wisely since it's easier to get somebody to change religions than it is to change stoves.

In the past 5 years I've gone through 2 major gear conversions. Svea stoves to Trangia. Just really admitted it to myself this year.

Knife wise it's been a shift from Buck lockbacks to Opinels.

And I'm a heartless engineer who had his soul removed by a marketing gig. Changes don't affect me. Except that they do.

In any event, have I mentioned to you today how great Opinels are and why you should them too

 

[midnight flyer]

You must be an Internet forum newbie!!!

HEY!!

Two great references. The authors of one of th NOLS books advised against asking people who recently ourchased things for advice because all you would hear is them justifying how smart they were in their purchase.

Hilarious AND true!

Colin Fletcher said pick your camp stove wisely since it's easier to get somebody to change religions than it is to change stoves.

In the past 5 years I've gone through 2 major gear conversions. Svea stoves to Trangia. Just really admitted it to myself this year.

If Mr. Fletcher said it, it's gospel! Myself, I never weaned away from my MSR. Loved that heavy little guy then, and love it now.

Knife wise it's been a shift from Buck lockbacks to Opinels.

For me, my big shift in knife carrying is actually a pretty small one. I carried smaller knives like butterbeans, small jacks, peanuts and small single bladed knives for a while when I took a job that took me from hands on to hands off. In other words, smaller traditional patterns.

Back to hands on full time a few years ago, I noticed my knives got larger and larger until I was back carrying my 4" Case Copperhead and my 4" Case stockman, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Then a few years ago I received a stainless stockman that looked a lot like the Case stockman and felt a lot like it in the hand. When using it I was astonished how far stainless had come and loved the lack of maintenance.

As noted, we are indeed in a golden age of steel. I have traditionals in different steels I like, so I can not only match the knife to the job, but I can match it to the weather. Since I can sweat all the way through my boots (literally) on a 105 degree day here, stainless is lovely for those days. A combination of chemicals, pressure treated lumber and sweat can be pretty hard on a knife's finish. And when the weather is pretty fair and dry and I have a nice all woodworking job, I can break out the carbon (especially some of my old fellas) and use the heck out of them.

I feel like I am in the lap of luxury sometimes when I am going through the knife box to see which one goes to work.

And I'm a heartless engineer who had his soul removed by a marketing gig. Changes don't affect me. Except that they do.

I hear 'ya. I am jaded from buying so many poor quality or average quality tools at high prices. And I need more tools or knives like I need a hole in the head. It is easy for me not to buy anything.

Except...

I saw a Boker "Cinch" stockman with pretty brown bone scales that had about two years pocket wear on it that a friend of mine was carrying. I was in love... it reminded me of the knives I saw way back when, and it looked and felt like a fine old work knife. If I closed my eyes I could feel my old Case from the 60s in my hand while I was using it.

I fought the urge hard for about two months. I couldn't stand it anymore. I haven't bought a carbon steel blade in years, but this one was too much to resist. I bought two, and already have the other one in mind for a Christmas gift for a retired buddy of mine. He'll love it.

Talk about weak... no marketing needed. All I had to do was handle that knife and I was toast. Sheesh...

Robert

 

[Snoopy1]

I agree if you can get a steel that performs better why not use it.

I understand where you are coming from. Simple answer for me is tradition. I like that Queen, Gec, and others use traditional materials in their slip joints.

Why do we walk around with a knife loose in our pocket? They invented pocket clips.
Why do we still open our knives with two hands breaking a thumb nail? :0 They invented flippers and thumbstuds.

Same answer tradition.

 

[rcoulas]

I like the look of a blade with patina and normally carry a GEC made with 1095 , I do have stain resistant blades on some of my knives. When I'm in the bush I carry a knife with a carbon blade more so for the fact I can use it in a pinch to produce sparks with a flint or ferocarium rod, I haven't found a stainless that will do that. My favourite kitchen knife is still my Shun made with VG max stainless and it has a super fine very sharp edge.