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What's So Great About Damascus?

Mostly it's the art. It is a way for the artist to communicate with the knife owner, the pattern represents the skill, time, and sweat that went into it. Which is why I do not dig machined, stainless damascus.

On the performance side, Howard Clark and Tim Zowada makes a bainite forming L6/O2 combination that is super tough when properly heat treated. Quite possibly the best strength and edgeholding combination out there. When steel is pattern welded, some of the elements, like carbon, gets mixed up, allowing the smith to create a custom steel that does not exist elsewhere. Most pattern-welds however are not made to surpass homogenous steel in performance, but they can be just as good.

[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 04-06-2000).]
 
Hello,


Yep you hit it right on the head!! In choosing a Damascus maker or Damascus material, Maker/material choise is everything in my opinion. I have bought and been Given some Pattern Welded and Cable
Damascus from a Few Well known Makers(who i wont mention for sake of Badfeelings) whos damascus was just JUNK!! as far a performance
went,,, Great pattern but the only problem was they Burnt all the Carbon out of it to a point that Hardening Processes were MUTE at best. Thats the Problem with Damascus thats not executed well.

I have also on the opposite had Excellent Luck and performance with Ed Caffery`s
Random Pattern 15N20 Mix Damascus with the few bars i have gotten from him. Also i have used Aftermarket bought and supplied to me by Customers Damascus by Devon Thomas, Also First Rate Stuff.

Im sure there are Loads of Guys who have there Craft down to where it Incompasses
Strength/Cutting/Visual appeal down to a science, The Problem is Fishing them out
from the Ones who only have the Visual Aspect down to a science.

But then again if your a Collector/user who only wishes to possess a Visually appealing Knife without the Attributes of Strength or cutting ability then the door is wide open.

As far as Stonger, Cut better,, all depends on my above statement, But i can tell you for absolute Certainty, a good well made and hardened Simple Carbon Steel blade will give any Damascus blade a good Romp in the woods,, and more than likely Out cut it in the process.

I guess a good rule of thumb would be
Dont Listen to how a MAKER himself tells you how great his Damascus is,,,let his Customers and Peer`s do it for him .

anyway thats my opinion

take care,,,,,, Allen Blade

[This message has been edited by Allen Blade (edited 04-06-2000).]
 
Just my $0.02 which would probably show up my limited understanding.

The original and, may I say, legendary Damascus steel was a mix of high carbon and lower carbon steel. The idea was to blend it in such a way as to acheive a super hard edge that would cut through just about everything an enemy soldier might have for protection, yet have a softer body that would absorb the impacts without shattering. The softer steel interspaced between the hard stuff would absorb the vibrations and what not. The hard stuff would take care of the edge holding and cutting. So... that was the original concept.

Now the trouble is, the exact compositions of the each type of steel, the method of blending them, etc, has been lost, what with all the wars and such prevalent in that region of the world and people losing their possesions, not to mention their heads, so losing the formula to the "super steel" wouldn't have been too difficult. And anyway, it's probably a hard story to swallow that there really was such a "super steel".

Even so, there exists some artifacts which exhibit the pattern thought to be associated with Damascus steel. I can't attest to their legendary strength and edge holding properties, but they sure are beautiful to look at. Modern day makers have attempted to analyse the stuff and have tried as much as possible to make up a similar steel. So far, they've succeeded in making very beautiful knives that perform well, but I don't think any of them have approached the legendary qualities the steel was supposed to posses. And besides, not many of them are trying to rediscover the legendary qualities so much as using it for it's beauty. Anyway, many of our modern steels probably out-perform the original Damascus.

So, that's my $0.02 worth. Can a maker perhaps shed some more light on this? Or perhaps an historian specialising in metallurgy? I'm just as interested to find out.
 
Dang Allen, you sure are fast.
smile.gif
 
I actually like shiny steel better for aesthetics. I don't think very many people agree with me though.

Allen Blade answered that pretty well.

The sharpness is determined by how you shapren it.

------------------
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
Such a funny quote, true or not.
-ediconu
 
Good info here and tallwingedgoat started a list of Damascus makers that know there stuff. To me, there is nothing like a great damascus knife that performs. Others I would add to that list are Darrel Ralph, Dellana, James Schmidt, John Fitch, Harley, Jerry Fisk, Dave Ellis, Steve Swartzer, Keith Kilby, and Don Fog (this was off the top of my head there are many others some I do not know YET!) I feel that Howard and Tim have made fantastic strides in this area and have raised the bar. They have also done quite a bit to spread their knowledge. I am also excited about the efforts being expended by some younger less known guys many of whom contribute here at BF. It takes a heck of amount of effort and tallent to create a pattern welded blade and heat-treat it properly, as well as a lot of trial and error. I feel that no matter how artsy a knife ends up being, if it is not capable of performance, (even if it will never be used) it is more of a work of art than a knife.

------------------
"Life is too short to carry an ugly knife." Steve F.


[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 04-06-2000).]
 
I'm no expert on Damascus, I didn'y even know it existed two years ago, but I've got a feeling these Hammer and Forge guys are as much into performance of their Damascus as they are into making it beautiful.

Let me ask you a question though. When you see a beautiful woman, do you wonder if she can pull a plow?



------------------
"Will work 4 Knives!"
Homepage: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=254126
 
Hey Phil,
After being married to one that had a "few probems" YES I DO.

In the words of Buddy Guy:

"The next woman I marry is gonna go out, work and have two jobs so she can bring home the dough".
wink.gif
(yeah right)

Then I am going to ask Gary if I can come visit so I can get a few pointers on the lawn mowing/leaf raking situation
biggrin.gif

------------------
"Life is too short to carry an ugly knife." Steve F.



[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 04-06-2000).]
 
Damascus's main advantage is that it looks cool. Beyond that,
it's difficult to make generalizations. How it performs depends
on which metals are being used, and the quality of manufacture.
One thing for sure, it is *definitely* much easier to mess up on
damascus, burn out the carbon, etc., than it is on just a regular
steel. To start us off on an even keel, here's a quick section on
damascus from the Steel FAQ (located at
www.bladeforums.com/features/faqs.html ), I added this section a
few months ago:

---- begin excerpt

DAMASCUS STEEL -- see www.dfoggknives.com for much more detail

Damascus steels are made by forge-welding two or more different metals (usually steels). The billets are heated and welded; to get an idea of the process, see Don Fogg's URL listed in the bibliography. The damascus is then acid-etched. The different metals etch at different rates, and depth and color contrast are revealed.

Damascus can be made with performance and/or aesthetic objectives in mind. Aesthetically, the choice of materials is important. One shiney steel and one darker steel etch out to show the most striking pattern. If the maker is going more for beauty than performance, he
might even go with nickel, which is bright but does not perform as well as steel for cutlery applications. The other factor affecting beauty is of course the welding pattern. Many patterns of damascus are available today, from random to star to ladder, and a whole lot more.

The following steels will provide bright lines:

L-6 and 15N20 (the Swedish version of L-6) -- nickel content
O-1 -- chromium content
ASTM 203 E -- nickel content
Nickel

The following steels will provide dark lines:

1095
1084
5160
52100
W-2

------- end of excerpt

In talking to a lot of knifemakers, including some famous ones
that make highly-regarded damascus, the general feeling I have is
that AT BEST, a very well-done damascus will perform on par with
a very well-done monolithic steel. But between the difficulty of
heat treat and the difficulty of picking the right steels for the
damascus, you can (and will) often end up with a worse product.
The damascus types with very shiny lines that have basically been
chosen for aesthetics over performance, will of course have
inferior performance. What you're going for with damascus is
performance that's as good as monolithic steel, with aesthetics
that are much better.

There's been a lot of discussion about the damascus forming kind
of a serrated edge, due to hard and soft steels being welded
together. However, again in talking to a lot of makers, there
seems to be consensus that carbon migration takes place very
quickly during the welding process. Since carbon is the main
hardening element, once the carbon migrates from the high-carbon
steel to the low-carbon steel, carbon levels equal out and the
steel ends up at around the same hardness.
Not that the critical temperatures of the two steels really match perfectly, but there's no real proof that the soft/hard theory works in practice.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 04-06-2000).]
 
Gentlemen; first of all, a matter of semantics. What you have been calling 'Damascus' steel is not true Damascus steel. That term is reserved for steel which has been folded into layers, such as the steel in Nihon-to (Japanese swords).

The correct term for what you have been discussing is pattern welded steel. However, common usage calls this steel Damascus, so as long as we know of what we speak, let us not be picky about nomenclature.

Further supporting this convention is the fact that Damascus steel was NOT true folded steel, further it was not made in Damascus, but in India (Damascus was a distribution point). It was in fact fluid steel, with a high cementite content which gave it a Damascus pattern.

Of course, by now you think I am a wild eyed heretic; but take the time to check out this site: http://swordforum.com/jan99/ see the article, 'The Road to Damascus.' The author, incidentally, makes some absolutely gorgeous pattern welded steel swords.

Still unconvinced? OK, go here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/patterns.html

You will find a variety of methods used in the construction of very old swords. Here is what they say about Wootz steel:

These blades are directly forged from a small cake of heterogeneous steely iron which traditionally was produced in India.
Click to expand...

So, Damascus ain't really Damascus; Wootz ain't really Damascus. Nihon-to ARE Damascus. Clear??
wink.gif


Oh, I should add that Nihon-to weren't usually forged from a single piece of steel. Go here to see the various ways that different types of layered steel were welded together to form swords:
http://japanesesword.homestead.com/files/laminate.htm

So, actually, most Nihon-to are a combination of Damascus and pattern welded steel. Does that clarify the situation?
smile.gif


Walt
 
Mike gives us a wedgie if we commence character assassination, direct personal attacks on personality, lineage, or points of view (especially, but not limited to knife related subjects) before you get 70 or 80 posts. So enjoy the honeymoon. Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Welch (edited 04-06-2000).]
 
Well. . . what we call damascus today should really be called pattern-weld. Which is simliar to how the Vikings and modern Southeast Asians (think kris swords) made blades.

Swords from China and Japan are sort of similiar to pattern-welded swords elsewhere. Just different materials, different folding techniques.

Damascus = Wootz. It was the very advanced crucible technology of the Middle East and India that allowed them to make a steel that forms a lattice of hard carbides suspened in soft iron, the surface looks alot like the pattern on pattern-welds. This was the ancient version of Talonite. Damascus was the city where the Crusaders bought the material. Hence the name, so I'm told.



[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 04-06-2000).]
 
15n20 is 1075 with 2% nickel and mixed with 1084 is what i have been using for 15 years by using this combination you allways have good steel

------------------
All that is not Given Is Lost
 
Man, I feel like such an idiot. Read through all those links that Joe provided. Finally, I see the light. Thanks guys. And thanks to joeG26er for starting this thread. I learnt more from this than I could possibly imagine.
 
Where can I find more on the composition of 15n20? Is it exactly 1075 + nickle? Does it have any chrome, vanadium, silicon, etc?

[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 04-07-2000).]
 
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