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whats so special about s30v??

Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
655
ive been going over numerous steel charts and i cant find anything really special about s30v but it seems to be one of the real steels of choice. I see that steels like aus 6-8-10 have some nickel and most dont, vanadium too.VG-10 and ATS-55 have some cobalt. X-15tn has a little cobalt. N690 has some cobalt. S30v does have .40 vanadium, I wonder if that makes a difference...............you on cliff....whats up...
 
S30V holds a great edge, but is a real PITA to sharpen IMHO. My favorite new steel is H1, used in some Spyderco's, it dosn't hold an edge like my S30V knives, but gets sharper easier and quicker, and I think it might even get sharper than the S30V can. But, that is my experience, and everybody has a different opinion.
 
There are cooks, who are praised for the way they prepare foods and so on, but i personally never found anything really special about it. Maybe that is your point. You will come around with any steel you have mentioned and i don´t see why S30V is the steel of choice. I would take a 420HC at HRC58 from Buck over a S30V at same hardness from whoever.

But, what about search function? This topic has been discussed to the end. You can find anything about this steel in older threads.

Visit Crucible Steelside and look what they tell about their product. Don´t reply saiying, that you want neutral informnation. This all is written down here.

You may want to have a look at your charts again. S30V contains 4% Vanadium.

Don´t know, what vanadium is? Might have a look at the FAQ.

Don´t think 4% is much because S60V has more?

Do you think S60V is common steel?

You will have so much information about this steel, if you look for the old topics. It really is great, what ppl. share there.

Don´t expect them to repeat it all for you here.
 
With S30V, it's not simply the mixture of the elements, but how it's made. It's full designation is CPMS30V; the CPM stands for Crucible Particle Metallurgy (some might say Powder). Here's the details straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.crucibleservice.com/products/CPM/index.cfm

Basically, instead of just pouring melted metal into bars/ingots/rods/etc, the powdered metal pressure formed into solids. The advantage is a much more homogonous grain a carbide structure than with the older melt/pour/solidify method.

Here's some more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_metallurgy
 
paulwesley said:
ive been going over numerous steel charts and i cant find anything really special about s30v ...

There are a few things which are important, the first it is a CPM steel which makes its composition more uniform than a non-CPM steel. This doesn't radically change the behavior of the steel, it just makes it "better" in most regards.

Second is has a large amount of Vanadium, and Vanadium is the hardest carbide former in steels, it is harder in fact than Al oxide abrasives commonly used to sharpen knives. The effect vanadium has on wear resistance is so high that you can almost rank by vanadium content.

Third it contains nitrogen, whichamong other things adds to the wear resistance by forming nitrides, which are similar to carbides.

It works well for a stainless steel where wear is a major issue, it offers little if strength, toughness or corrosion resistance are the primary methods of failure. Some people have also reported problematic performance, specifically heavily premature brittle failure, some of this has been removed with sharpening, some not. This is likely a QC issue, though some people have had a run of bad luck and seen several blades with the exact same problem.

-Cliff
 
Third it contains nitrogen, whichamong other things adds to the wear resistance by forming nitrides, which are similar to carbides.

Just to clarify this quote from Cliff. In this particular alloy, the nitrogen is for corrosion resistance and does not form nitrides. Nitrogen substitutes for carbon without the detrimental effects carbon has on corrosion resistance.
 
rusty edge said:
S30V holds a great edge, but is a real PITA to sharpen IMHO. My favorite new steel is H1, used in some Spyderco's, it dosn't hold an edge like my S30V knives, but gets sharper easier and quicker, and I think it might even get sharper than the S30V can. But, that is my experience, and everybody has a different opinion.

I never found s30V a PITA to sharpen. Actually isn't it designed to have good wear resistence, yet be easy to sharpen? I thought that was one of the selling points.

As far as H1 getting sharper than s30v, I don't know. I'll leave that for Cliff and others to figure out. Generally it seems the finer the grain of the steel the sharpen an edge it will take. I don't know how H1 rates to s30v as far as grain.

Do you have two exact blade types, one with H1 and one with s30v, both sharpened at the same angle, where you were able to judge that one steel got sharper than the other?
 
Blop said:
I would take a 420HC at HRC58 from Buck over a S30V at same hardness from whoever.

You are kidding, right? Well, I guess each to their own. I wouldn't want 420HC no matter who makes it or who heat treats is as long as I can have any of 440C, ATS34, VG-10, S30V etc.
 
i like s30v its nice no need to sharpen very often, thinner blades, better cutters. anyway dont really feel much difference between the "highend" stainless steels but id rather have the best possible if i can :D
 
HoB said:
You are kidding, right? Well, I guess each to their own. I wouldn't want 420HC no matter who makes it or who heat treats is as long as I can have any of 440C, ATS34, VG-10, S30V etc.
I'd suppose this is more of a preconceived notion than anything based on actually doing a hands-on comparison. It can also depend greatly on what you want to use your knife for.
 
M Wadel said:
i like s30v its nice no need to sharpen very often, thinner blades, better cutters. anyway dont really feel much difference between the "highend" stainless steels but id rather have the best possible if i can

But is it the best possible steel? It doesn't take very fine edges because of the largish carbides, it seems prone to chipping as a number of people reported here (especially if you try to use acute angles), it isn't run very hard, at least not in the majoritiy of easily available knives. In my opinion S30V is a compromise steel, no more and no less. Whether you like it better than, for instance, VG-10, is largely a personal matter.

When you consider what a good good tool steel is like, things begin to look different altogether. A steel like M2 run at 63-64RC is superior to S30V in almost every respect except one - it's not a stainless steel.

Hans
 
no i meant one of the better regarded ones since i would be very happy with ats34, 154cm, s30,60,90, bg42, vg10. theyre all good i think so i dont really care but i prefer to have one of those atleast (and i probably missed a few too). i think the only difference i would notice is when sharpening but thats just because i dont have the "right tool for the job" yet, diamondrods

oh yeah according to erasteel/damasteel company a powdermetallurgical steel can be hardened approx 3hrc higher without risking becoming brittle (compared to the same chemical composition but not powdersteel)
 
Larrin: What makes you think that my statement is a preconceived notion? I have some Buck knives in 420HC from when I started to get interested in knives....and looking back, having experienced better steels, I can only say, I wish I hadn't wasted the money!

Edgeholding in my experience is poor, but worse, even though it doesn't have the abrasion resistance of S30V I find it still far more difficult to sharpen properly. It forms the most god aweful and stubburn burr of all the more commonly known bladesteels that I have had experience with. Of course, this is only my personal opinion and you might find that you disagree...as I say, each to their own. But I strongly resent having a preconceived notion. As far as knives are concerned I am willing to try everything I can afford at least once, and I wouldn't make such a statement if I hadn't tried it!

As far as application goes: In general I would agree, in this particular case I still have to disagree. 420HC is very corrosion resistant, more so than the other common bladesteels, but if I am faced with an application where I am concerned about corrosion, I would reach for an H-1 steel. 420HC is also relatively tough for a stainless, but for my folders I am just fine with any of the better steels as far as toughness is concerned, and for a big knife I would prefer an HC steel. So no matter which application, I am staying away from 420HC. Thankfully, Buck offeres alternatives!

P.S. I also prefer AUS-6 over 420HC and I know that some would disagree on that.
 
WadeF said:
Actually isn't it designed to have good wear resistence, yet be easy to sharpen? I thought that was one of the selling points.

Relatively high machinability vs the wear resistance is one of the strong points of the CPM process, however this isn't an absolute, it is compared to a similar alloy which isn't CPM processed. The machinability of S30V is very low compared to VG-10 for example which could cause problems depending on how the knife is sharpened and what it is used for.

As far as H1 getting sharper than s30v, I don't know.

I can see it being far easier because H1 grinds much easier, you really need to micro-bevel steels with low machinabilities to hone them efficiently without power equipment.

Satrang said:
In this particular alloy, the nitrogen is for corrosion resistance and does not form nitrides.

This depends on how it it tempered, nitrogen can induce a secondary hardening and the nitrides formed are not enriched in Cr and thus there is a gain in corrosion resistance. Nitrogen is an austensite stabilizer and thus martensitic stainless steels with nitrogen require the use of a fast quench (oil), cryo and secondary hardening to get maximum performance, some makers are doing exactly that.

-Cliff
 
I've been looking into those CPM*V steels myself; specifically S30V, S60V, and S90V. Here's a few excerpts from Joe Talmadge's 2002 paper, at http://www.nakededgecutlery.com/knifesteels.htm

"ATS-34/154CM, VG-10, and S60V are the next group up. It's difficult
to make generalizations about ATS-34 and 154-CM -- they are in such
widespread use that heat treat varies widely. These steels provide a
high-end performance benchmark for stainless steels, and hold an edge
well, and are tough enough for many uses (though not on par with good
non-stainlesses). They aren't very stain resistant, however. VG-10
can be thought of as being like ATS-34 and 154-CM, but doing just
about everything a hair better. It's a little more stain resistant,
tougher, holds an edge a little better. And VG-10 has vanadium in it,
it's fine-grained and takes the best edge of this group. S60V has by
far the best wear resistance of the group, though consensus is
becoming that it should be left around the same hardness as 440C
(56ish Rc), which means it will be relatively weak compared to ATS-34,
154-CM, and VG-10, and so it will indent and lose its edge quickly
when strength is required. S60V is the winner here when pure
abrasion resistance is much more important than edge strength.

BG-42, S90V, and S30V constitute the next group. BG-42 has better
wear resistance than all the previous steels except for S60V. It is
tougher than ATS-34, and more stain resistant. It is wear resistant
to the point where it can be difficult to sharpen. S90V represents
the ultimate in wear resistance in the steels discussed so far. Also
tougher than ATS-34, and more stain resistant. It can be very
difficult to put an edge on. It is difficult enough to machine than
it is used almost exclusively in custom knives, not production
knives. In your buying decisions, you might want to take into account
the difficulty of sharpening these steels. S30V backs off on the wear
resistance of S90V, but is significantly tougher and easier to
sharpen. It is more wear resistant than BG-42. The jury is still
out, but it may end up this week's ultimate high-end all-around
stainless steel, due to high performance coupled with easier
machineability and sharpenability than the other steels in this class."

"S60V (CPM T440V) - S90V (CPM T420V)
Two steels that hold an edge superbly, world class type edgeholding,
but it can be difficult to get the edge there in the first place.
These steels are made with Crucible's particle metallurgy process, and
that process allows these steels to be packed with more alloying
elements than traditional steel manufacturing methods would allow.
Both steels are very high in vanadium, which accounts for their
incredible wear resistance. Spyderco offers at least one model in CPM
S60V. Spyderco, one major user of S60V, has cut back hardness
down to 55-56Rc, in order to keep toughness acceptable, but that
sacrifices strength so there is a tradeoff. S90V is CPM's
follow-on to 440V, and with less chromium and almost double the
vanadium, is more wear-resistant and tougher than S60V -- and, in
fact, is probably more wear-resistant than any other stainless
steel used in the cutlery industry. As such, S90V
is in the running with steels like BG-42 as among the best
general-purpose stainless steels; however, S90V is even more expensive
and difficult to work than BG-42, so it's strictly in the realm of
custom makers currently..

CPM S30V:
The newest stainless steel from Crucible, purpose-designed as a
cutlery steel. This steel gives A-2-class toughness and almost-S90V
class wear resistance, at reasonable hardness (~59-60 Rc). This mix
of attributes is making S30V one of the hottest stainless steels
going, with makes such as Chris Reeve switching from BG-42 to S30V.
Will this be the new king of general-purpose stainless cutlery steels?
We'll know over the next couple of years."
 
I'm kind of curious about the role nitrogen plays...can someone draw a lewis/vsepr/mo diagram for me?

As for S30V, I've had great experiences with my one S30V knife. Holds an edge comparably to my D2 stuff. Really though, I don't think steel is that important in a knife, provided it's 440C or "better." 440C, and to a lesser degree, AUS8, knives still work fine for me.
 
rusty edge said:
S30V holds a great edge, but is a real PITA to sharpen IMHO. My favorite new steel is H1, used in some Spyderco's, it dosn't hold an edge like my S30V knives, but gets sharper easier and quicker, and I think it might even get sharper than the S30V can. But, that is my experience, and everybody has a different opinion.

I gave H1 more attention than anything else because I was so curious about it, and your experience is basically spot on. The only thing I need to add is you CAN make s30v just as sharp, but it takes a lot more careful work. H1 is amazing in its ability to be sharpening so quickly to such a fine edge.

I like H1 because it shows you what "easy to sharpen" means. Total performance lags, but it's a good steel to compare to typical stainless steels which tend to be difficult to sharpen.
 
Artfully Martial said:
I'm kind of curious about the role nitrogen plays...can someone draw a lewis/vsepr/mo diagram for me?

It actually does several things, and there is some debate last I read about the underlying theory. For example nitrogen dissolution can form ammonia which can lead to an increase in PH and a resulting repassivation of the surface of the steel. It can also inhibit the formation or growth of Cr rich carbides which induce Cr depletion and basically undo the stainless ability of the Cr in the steel, nitrides will form instead during secondary hardening. There are also age hardened steels like H1 which are different from the martensitic steels, and there are even non-stainless steels like INFI which have nitrogen.

-Cliff
 
This depends on how it it tempered, nitrogen can induce a secondary hardening and the nitrides formed are not enriched in Cr and thus there is a gain in corrosion resistance. Nitrogen is an austensite stabilizer and thus martensitic stainless steels with nitrogen require the use of a fast quench (oil), cryo and secondary hardening to get maximum performance, some makers are doing exactly that.

-Cliff

The nitrogen in THIS GRADE is for corrosion resistance. Grades that have nitrogen above the air solubility limit can form nitrides and that is where the difference lies. I know this because I am currently working on high nitrogen steel development, stainless and non-stainless. Potentially, there is cutlery applications but the work is too preliminary and proprietary to release.
 
Satrang said:
Grades that have nitrogen above the air solubility limit ...

Are you refering to a method of putting nitrogen into the steel, what does this translate to in terms of the by weight percentage composion, and what is it for S30V? How does CPM put the nitrogen in the steel, there are several methods used for CPM processing in general. Why doesn't the nitrogen nitride out if it is tempered in the secondary hardening range, what exactly does it do, stay in solid solution in the martensite.

-Cliff
 
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