whats the difference between a knife maker and a blade smith?

MEJ said:
which one would be cheaper in respect to setting up a place to forge/make knives (counting most tools required) an average cost for each?
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A bladesmith needs all the same tools as a stockremoval knifemaker. Depending on what you do and the price you get for the knives you sell there isn't any one way that's better.

From a "simple" perspective a stock removal maker has less costs as the bladesmith will need all the same exact tools as the stockremoval maker. The bladesmith will also need a forge, an anvil, hammers and tongs...maybe a power hammer and press too.....and there's more space needed for forging, more of a learning curve as you need to learn additional skills that the stock removal guy doesn't know.

That being said, you save on sand paper by forging to shape, save on bandsaw blades forging to shape and can make blade shapes that can't be easily made without wasting a lot of steel by using the stockremoval method. You can also make your own damascus.

I prefer bladesmithing personally more because of the artistic freedom, and because hammering on red hot steel is just freaking cool...... but also think that there is no one way to make knives.

Are you asking because you are interested in making knives? Studio4 forging is up in Seattle. The give knifemaking classes...http://www.davidlisch.com/classes.html
 
MEJ said:
which one would be cheaper in respect to setting up a place to forge/make knives (counting most tools required) an average cost for each?
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The easy answer is stock removal. You can shape thin, annealed barstock with nothing more than a common file if you're on a really tight budget or just want to take a minimalist approach. On the other hand, there are smiths in the third world who heat up scrap steel in a camp fire and forge blades on a flat rock with a hammer they scrounged up somewhere. Where there's a will, there's a way.

I'm a stock removal guy; all I really do is take high-quality fresh steel and make it smaller, by converting much of it into sparks and dust. I rely on a professional service for my heat-treating.
 
Your question has already been answered well, but I'll throw in my $0.02

I forge because I started out trying to learn blacksmithing, then moved over to knifesmithing, but there really is something about heating steel till it glows, and hammering it into the shape I want. So I started out forging, and I just continued it. But, I've noticed many stockremoval makers, eventually learn to do some forging, because it opens up the horizons.


Example, I'm going to be doing a chefs knife soon, and I want the width to be about a half inch wider than my widest barstock on hand. But I'll just forge out my stock to that width, and not have to order a new bar. Also, you can do damascus, san mai, and even integrals (you can grind out an integral, but when your taking a 3/4" bar of hex stock, it would take some special grind moves to get it).
 
Brian Ayres said:
A bladesmith needs all the same tools as a stockremoval knifemaker. Depending on what you do and the price you get for the knives you sell there isn't any one way that's better.

From a "simple" perspective a stock removal maker has less costs as the bladesmith will need all the same exact tools as the stockremoval maker. The bladesmith will also need a forge, an anvil, hammers and tongs...maybe a power hammer and press too.....and there's more space needed for forging, more of a learning curve as you need to learn additional skills that the stock removal guy doesn't knowhttp://www.davidlisch.com/classes.html
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Thats awesome maybe i will look into that. I was interested in setting up a simple shop to forge/make because i have been working with the local blacksmith to learn about heating and forming and he had this heating coil system that all you had to do was stick the blade into the coils and it heated it in seconds. It cost him around 200 so i am looking into it.

Also does anyone know how you would get a hammering platform. Ive been told anvils are extremely hard to come by and very expensive. So what else could i use?
es...
 
MEJ said:
i have been working with the local blacksmith to learn about heating and forming and he had this heating coil system that all you had to do was stick the blade into the coils and it heated it in seconds. It cost him around 200 so i am looking into it.
es...
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That's interesting- anyone out there using induction for bladesmithing?
I assume that heat is heat, but I've never heard it discussed.
Andy G.
 
Yes, some people are using induction "forges". I know of a couple of guys who use it, but they tend to save it for smaller pieces, like fittings or perhaps blades when they want to work on a specific section, but not so much for huge pieces like a big damascus billet. Induction heats small or thin pieces VERY quickly with little or no scaling, but the one or two times the I have seen video of someone heating say a larger round bar, it takes a lot longer and you get scale.
elementfe said:
That's interesting- anyone out there using induction for bladesmithing?
I assume that heat is heat, but I've never heard it discussed.
Andy G.
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Yep, induction heating is neat. :) Though I've never heard of an induction machine that costs only two hundred bucks. Two thousand maybe....

--nathan
 
That was my thought. Yes people use induction but $200 is WAY cheap for any setup at all.

It seems that the word "blacksmith" has been used more strictly in an Old World sense here, the new world smith was often less a specialist, more of a jack of all metal-related trades. It would not have been uncommon to see a western smith shoe a horse and make a knife in the same day. It is a very good point though about other world cultures in the past and the present being much more specialized, the Japanese sword for instance normally went through the hands of at least four craftsmen before being completed.

I started out forging and still do, but my original idea of it as a way to save time and materials over stock removal proved wrong. I can make a knife quicker out of bar stock for sure. I just like forging! Having the gear opens up new avenues of non-knife related creativity. I find though that forging really helps me right now with chef knives, and most of my integrals would be highly impractical by stock removal.

One other cool thing about blade smithing is the ability to recycle steel- not very fashionable these days, but very practical in some situations. It does come in handy time to time with custom knives- I've made knives for gearheads out of Mustang springs, knives for woodsmen out of saw bars, Harley chain billets are cool for bikers, railroad spike knives and hawks make great novelty pieces, etc. I even have a plowshare I'm going to beat into a sword someday!
 
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I'm a stock removal guy. I got over my fascination with fire a long time ago, and I never was very good at putting a hammer right where I wanted it (much to my dismay).

For me saying it's just about taking metal away is inaccurate. It's about adding things, too... and making them fit properly. Now maybe those things are made with the same stock removal techniques, but the point is it isn't just "cut away everything that isn't a blade".

- Greg
 
MEJ,

Anvils aren't that hard to find. It just takes some diligence on Craigslist. Induction heating systems are expensive. Grant Sarver of OCP sold them. I'm not sure if they are still going since he passed away?

You can also use a simple post anvil. Use the search function and type post anvil and you'll see a fee examples. Shouldn't take much to build one.
 
Tait said:
Magnanimous, I'm not sure that's the prevailing opinion. Kevin Cashen states in multiple places that grain is a function of heat treatment and not forging itself. He is on the board of ABS.
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I am still working on whether the grapevine network that brings these things to my attention is a good thing or a bad thing…;)

I’ll think on it some more, but in the meantime let me say that many of the old assumptions and misconceptions about the old forging vs. stock removal thing die very hard. There may have been a time that the ABS more broadly embraced what was widely considered factual at the time, but the group has refocused it efforts in quality education quite well over the years and now does not endorse as a group any position, that I am aware of, regarding these issues. There are certainly individual member smiths, who do not bear the same responsibility to reliable information as the group as a whole, who can, and do, claim all sorts of things, but from what I have seen the ABS has somewhat outgrown it. Although I must stress that even as a board member I cannot speak for the group itself and can only give my honest impression of how things are. And, of course, you can all rely on me to do my best to help in ensuring that any information that is embraced be soundly grounded in fact, for the good of the ABS and for the good of our craft.
 
A bladesmith needs all the same tools as a stockremoval knifemaker
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With all due respect but a smith does not "need" all the same tools as a stock remover - in fact even stock removers don't need all that stuff either . When I started making blades via smithing (back in the Dark Ages) my first couple of hundred knives were made with a home made brake drum forge, a stock of coal, a hand operated blower, a big chunk of steel for an anvil (nope not the best but it worked), some flea market hammers, flea market and handmade tongs, a 1/4" hand drill, and a bunch of files - total cost at that time - 1965 or so was less than $100.00 - a bit pricier now of course but with diligence one could set himself with a similar setup up for less than $200.00 - I know that for a fact since I recently helped a gent do just that. Nope not the "best" of tools , but with that simple setup I also made my own pattern welded steel and I lost count of the number of knives I've made since the late sixties at $1,000. Were they the best knives - well best all depends on how you define it - I've never had much in the way of complaints in that regard and I've been selling my knives since 1971. And nope I don't do a lot of smithing anymore but that's due to health problems, not because I don;t have alltheh tools - actuallythesed days I just go down to my buddies shop and use his forge, etc. and yes even his grinder.

In fact I never have owned what most would consider a knifemakers grinders like a KMwhichihc most folks consider a necessity today. Yes you can stock remove with just files and sandpaper and a source for heat treating,, but I know very few stock removal makers who do so with such limited tools. Power tools are nice and can speedup the job and tools like heat treat ovens can give one easier control, but they don't make a knife better on their own - tsmithmit/maker is still the "Man".
 
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Random thought: I wonder how often anvils get melted down and recycled into something else...
 
Wild Rose said:
With all due respect but a smith does not "need" all the same tools as a stock remover - in fact even stock removers don't need all that stuff either . When I started making blades via smithing (back in the Dark Ages) my first couple of hundred knives were made with a home made brake drum forge, a stock of coal, a hand operated blower, a big chunk of steel for an anvil (nope not the best but it worked), some flea market hammers, flea market and handmade tongs, a 1/4" hand drill, and a bunch of files - total cost at that time - 1965 or so was less than $100.00 - a bit pricier now of course but with diligence one could set himself with a similar setup up for less than $200.00 - I know that for a fact since I recently helped a gent do just that. Nope not the "best" of tools , but with that simple setup I also made my own pattern welded steel and I lost count of the number of knives I've made since the late sixties at $1,000. Were they the best knives - well best all depends on how you define it - I've never had much in the way of complaints in that regard and I've been selling my knives since 1971. And nope I don't do a lot of smithing anymore but that's due to health problems, not because I don;t have alltheh tools - actuallythesed days I just go down to my buddies shop and use his forge, etc. and yes even his grinder.

In fact I never have owned what most would consider a knifemakers grinders like a KMwhichihc most folks consider a necessity today. Yes you can stock remove with just files and sandpaper and a source for heat treating,, but I know very few stock removal makers who do so with such limited tools. Power tools are nice and can speedup the job and tools like heat treat ovens can give one easier control, but they don't make a knife better on their own - tsmithmit/maker is still the "Man".
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I agree. A bladesmith can use a coal forge, a $5.00 cross pein, and a piece of steel for an anvil with a file to refine the bevels. In fact, look at what Tai Goo makes. Without "knowing" every tool he has, I'm pretty sure he has less than most guys and still makes knives that are incredibly well made and works of art.
A stock removal guy can but a few files, some bar stock. sandpaper and a c-clamp and be in business too...

But, I was speaking in general terms. If a guy was to set up shop for stock removal and his buddy for forging most often they'd each buy a belt grinder, a drill press, a vise, but the bladesmith would also likely buy an anvil, a forge and a few hammers at minimum...

I am glad you made the point though. I hope nobody thinks they need to spend thousands of dollars to get started. It's really up to you to decide what path you want to follow.
 
I thought everyone knew forgers have beards, big arms and drink whiskey out'a the bottle. Everyone else, well, maybe chin whiskers, sore shoulder joints from all that grinding, and drink Miller's Lite:D

yeah, guys, it's just a joke, but it's an image I enjoy a bit, haha.
 
Quenching at midnight, no moon, no stars either, just the glow of redhot steel. The Devil afraid to come near...Innagardaofevil blaring
 
Your knife, or sword, gets to critical heat, pull it out of the fire, plunge it into the quench oil, hear it sizzle, pull it out and see the fire on the blade in the dark night. God! i love this stuff!! Doesn't matter if you are a bladesmith or a knifemaker, just enjoy the hell out'a it! When you see a blade you have made, and it's good, you will feel a flow of satisfaction.
 
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