What's the lowest level of steel you'll tolerate when buying a knife?

L

Lucky Strike

Joined
Oct 2, 2006
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Just wondering, with all the different types of steel out there where do you guys generally draw the line when buying a knife.

I just bought a leek with a 440A blade and have read from some on here that they won't buy something with a blade in that steel.

I do know though that heat treating has a lot to do with it as well although that's a lot harder to quantify then a nice clear stamp right on the blade.
 
Are you sure it's 440A? I thought Kershaw would be using 440C or better in their blades.

On stainless kniives, 440C is about the lowest level I would accept because there's just so many other production knife makers using steel of that quality or better these days.
 
Lucky Strike said:
Just wondering, with all the different types of steel out there where do you guys generally draw the line when buying a knife.

I just bought a leek with a 440A blade and have read from some on here that they won't buy something with a blade in that steel.

I do know though that heat treating has a lot to do with it as well although that's a lot harder to quantify then a nice clear stamp right on the blade.
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Although I have less knowledge than experience, mine has been that it depends on your usage. Some folks find it makes a difference for their particular purposes, which can range from a variety of demanding cutting chores to building collections, all valid reasons. Then, too, there are a number of hobbyists posting here who are involved with the technology and apt to pay more attention to these details than the great majority of actual knife users. Many of them are admitted "steel snobs."

In my case, during 55+ years of carrying and using knives, I have yet to experience any failures or inadequacies due to inferior steel. That includes everything from "who knows" grades from no-name brands to VG10 and 154 CM in better blades. Less prestigious stainless steels are perfectly adequate for most end users. In most cases, the only noticeable difference is that they will probably have to be resharpened more often.

It is worthwhile to keep in mind that to all but a handful of enthusiasts, the knife using public couldn't care less about these matters.
 
If you had asked me this about a year ago I'm sure I'd have said differently. As is always the case when learning and growing on these forums one comes to the point where it is sometimes time to re-evaluate old beliefs. Some recent findings regarding edge geometry and the angle of the grind on a blade have led to some surpising results for some.

The CATRA testing has brought up some interesting things to think about when evaluating different blade steels. For example: ask yourself why a new Buck 110 of 420HC with the new edge profile Buck now uses outperforms the old 110s with superior 440C blade steel. The difference is the angle of the edge. A 420HC blade at 15 degrees per side would outperform an ATS34 Bos heat treated blade identical to the 420HC blade in every way except for the 20 degree edge angle placed on the ATS34 blade. Of course if you reprofile the ATS34 to the same 15 degree angle then you will see it take the lead but the point is edge geometry plays so much into how we evaluate the steels we use that sometimes it causes an unjust prejudice. Then of course there are the issues of some steels not being optimized for their own inherent properties that can cover things like not optimized heat treat or Rc hardness for that steel, improper obtuse angle for that steel or an angle too thin for it. All of these things are beginning to be talked about to where the science behind what is really an all around perfect steel have changed many minds as to what is adequate and what is more than adequate for an EDC knife.

As a result of this I'm suddently taking a new look into some knives I'd have otherwise ignored. Knives with blade steels of AUS6, 440A, and 420HC. So far I have not been disappointed now that I am better equipped to deal with things that come up as they do using them everyday. As it turns out 420HC is a very tough steel. I'd be very interested to see some comparisons of this steel up against some of the so called super steels for "overall" toughness and durability as well as the 440A because I have a sneaking suspicion that we may find out that some of the so called super steels are not so super knowing what we know now.

STR
 
STR said:
If you had asked me this about a year ago I'm sure I'd have said differently. As is always the case when learning and growing on these forums one comes to the point where it is sometimes time to re-evaluate old beliefs. Some recent findings regarding edge geometry and the angle of the grind on a blade have led to some surpising results for some.

The CATRA testing has brought up some interesting things to think about when evaluating different blade steels. For example: ask yourself why a new Buck 110 of 420HC with the new edge profile Buck now uses outperforms the old 110s with superior 440C blade steel. The difference is the angle of the edge. A 420HC blade at 15 degrees per side would outperform an ATS34 Bos heat treated blade identical to the 420HC blade in every way except for the 20 degree edge angle placed on the ATS34 blade. Of course if you reprofile the ATS34 to the same 15 degree angle then you will see it take the lead but the point is edge geometry plays so much into how we evaluate the steels we use that sometimes it causes an unjust prejudice. Then of course there are the issues of some steels not being optimized for their own inherent properties that can cover things like not optimized heat treat or Rc hardness for that steel, improper obtuse angle for that steel or an angle too thin for it. All of these things are beginning to be talked about to where the science behind what is really an all around perfect steel have changed many minds as to what is adequate and what is more than adequate for an EDC knife.

As a result of this I'm suddently taking a new look into some knives I'd have otherwise ignored. Knives with blade steels of AUS6, 440A, and 420HC. So far I have not been disappointed now that I am better equipped to deal with things that come up as they do using them everyday. As it turns out 420HC is a very tough steel. I'd be very interested to see some comparisons of this steel up against some of the so called super steels for "overall" toughness and durability as well as the 440A because I have a sneaking suspicion that we may find out that some of the so called super steels are not so super knowing what we know now.

STR
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Very informative post, thanks!

What in general determines whether a steel will take well to a 15 degree angle?
 
Depending on the price point, I typically don't care. I value handle ergonomics & materials, lock type, and blade profile more so than the actual steel used. You or I can put a shaving edge on any blade steel, but there's not much you can do to the ergonomics of a folding knife.

Of course I have my favorite steel types and will pay a premium for them, but in less costly knives, steel is of little importance.
 
Speaking from my own experiences with my own knives as well as those I've reprofiled for many forum members I would have to conclude that basically any folder takes quite well to a 15 degree cutting angle and a 20 degree secondary angle or a micro bevel. I have to wonder at times why so many companies are selling folding knives new in the box with the 20 plus degree edge on them let alone the really obtuse 22 to 23 degree edges I've seen from some that you would think have risen above this habit. Many of the older knives were obtuse and thicker grinds than was optimum but to see it today in this day and age of the information highway is quite surprising to me.

The only time I'd suggest a thicker edge is probably in a chopping or baton type implement or tool and even then that is not always the case. Mora makes some fine choppers that are a mere 1/16" thick and they seem quite tough and capable to me, even with a 15 degree bevel on the edge so it all depends on the hardness, the toughness, steel type and how well the maker or manufacturer understands how to put all these together for the optimum blade performance and also on how adventerous the user is to experiment with different angles to decide which he/she likes best for the way they use the knife.

STR
 
I prefer carbon steel or Swiss Army for stainless. Like was said: most casual knife users purchase on looks & are not the slightest bit concerned about the steel used.
 
Slatts said:
Are you sure it's 440A? I thought Kershaw would be using 440C or better in their blades.

On stainless kniives, 440C is about the lowest level I would accept because there's just so many other production knife makers using steel of that quality or better these days.
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I'm not sure if there are 440C blades forthe Leeks, but I do have one in 440A

Lucky Strike,

I don't have a large amount of experience, but I've had better results with 440C and S30V than with AUS8 and 440A. S30V has taken then best edge and held the edge the longest. Both AUS8 and 440A usually require me to sharpen more frequently All knives except for the AUS8 blade have been sharpened at 15 degrees per side, and the AUS8 is sharpened at 20 degrees per side. I'll be reprofiling the AUS8 blade soon enough though. The AUS8 blade has to be resharpened more often than the 440A, so the edge angle may play a bigger factor here, because the usually things that I've read about the 2 steels is that AUS8 is supeior in edge hold abilities.
 
ignoramus said:
When you say that you sharpen more often, how much more are we talking about? (Any one jump in and answear this one).

Is it some thing like 440a has to be sharpen 4 times, while S30V only gets 1 time?

Or is it 440a 1½ time each time you sharpen S30V 1 time?

Or 10 to 1 ?

Your answear does not have to be 100% accurate, just roughly so I can get an idea of what we are talking about.
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That obviously depends on the application. Are we talking about a small folder or a machete?
 
STR said:
Speaking from my own experiences with my own knives as well as those I've reprofiled for many forum members I would have to conclude that basically any folder takes quite well to a 15 degree cutting angle and a 20 degree secondary angle or a micro bevel. I have to wonder at times why so many companies are selling folding knives new in the box with the 20 plus degree edge on them let alone the really obtuse 22 to 23 degree edges I've seen from some that you would think have risen above this habit. Many of the older knives were obtuse and thicker grinds than was optimum but to see it today in this day and age of the information highway is quite surprising to me.

The only time I'd suggest a thicker edge is probably in a chopping or baton type implement or tool and even then that is not always the case. Mora makes some fine choppers that are a mere 1/16" thick and they seem quite tough and capable to me, even with a 15 degree bevel on the edge so it all depends on the hardness, the toughness, steel type and how well the maker or manufacturer understands how to put all these together for the optimum blade performance and also on how adventerous the user is to experiment with different angles to decide which he/she likes best for the way they use the knife.

STR
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Is there any way to know what angles production knives come shipped with?
 
I think a lot of people rely on the manufacturers to tell them the angle the edge is at. Many don't seem very consistant to me though. You would need an edge pro sharpener or something similar to probably get a real good grasp of what a partiuclar edge is at. A sharpmaker sharpener would do the trick to help you figure it out also. Use a magic marker to make a line where the bevel ends or at its highest point on the blade. Stay just on and slightly below that line with the marker and then set the angle for your sharpener. When it sharpens the line off the blade you hit the angle its at.

Spyderco seems to be very consistant at 15 degrees per side. BenchMade on the other hand tells people one thing but the knives appear to be another thing altogether. I don't want to go there. I get a lot of BenchMade knives for sharpening reprofile work from forum members for the edges being thick and inefficient. In days gone by it used to be a good many Buck folders and fixed blades but since they have adopted this new concept I can't recall being asked to do anymore of those. Its been a few years now since I've had a Buck in for that and after buying my last Buck 110, and the latest purchase a 503 Prince I can see why.

These knives are sharp. I mean sharp, like Spyderco sharp. And you know what. They are keeping the edge as long and as better in my opinion as many of my more expensive knives in supposedly better blade steel. I might add they are cutting the exact same things too and I can't say that I am seeing any real difference in the amount of work maintaining the edge from one over the other. Here I thought I had a pretty good grasp of things but I'm beginning to wonder. I cut a lot of fiberglass tape. This stuff is tough on an edge. Regardless of what anyone says its as hard on a blade as carpet, or fiberglass insulation or anything else that has "glass" in the makeup. These 420HC blades are working and I must say they have changed my tune about so called bottom of the barrel steels.

STR
 
I agree with much of what has been said by STR.

Edge angles make a much bigger difference than blade steel.

So far I haven't used a steel that I did not find adequate. I have a BudK fixed blade of mystery stainless I paid 1$ for which is my dedicated grip-tape knife when I put together a new skateboard. Griptape is sandpaper with adhesive on the back, very rough on a knife. I cut the needed amount for the board, then use an extra piece to take the burr off afterwards and that's all the maintenence it requires.

I have SAKs I've reprofiled much steeper than the standard angles. I'm at the point now where when I buy a new SAK the angles dissapoint me, where I used to be impressed with their out of box sharpness. SAK steel is run soft, in the mid 50's I think, but at these low angles (Flat to the stone) they preform well in cardboard, wood and food chores.

At this point I won't let bladesteel keep me from buying a knife. I'll use 420hc, AUS4 and 6 etc.
 
Blade steel question. I just bought a CS Outdoorsman in the new VG1 Laminate. To test it I went out and Striped the bark off of a bunch of dried alder. Dried alder bark gets very hard and dulls knives quickly. After wearing my hand out the knife was still like new sharp. The next day when I called CS I found my knife was not VG1 but an older model in AUS8, which I thought was not that good (like 440B). After two plus hours of cutting hard wood it would still shave my arm.
I not sure what I should think about steels now.
Ron Athay
 
For me it depends on a lot of things. The intended use of the knife and the price being the main two.

If the knife is going to be a back-up and has some other quality that I like, I'll take a 420hc or AUS6 blade, specially if the blade has a good edge geometry (as STR already pointed out). Swiss Army Knives are a good example of this. They use a no-name stainless, but since I use them for the extra tools and the blade doesn't see that much action (they are usually a back up to my main knife) I don't care. Plus the price is right.

If it is a multi-blade folder (like a stockman) properly heat treated 420HC is enough for a user, sure I prefer ATS-34 like on the Schatt & Morgans, but if there's a nice slippie with 420HC blades for a good price, I'll take it.

I won't buy a fixed blade made out of mediocre steel, though. The good thing with fixed blades is that there are some excellent steels out there that are not flavour of the week, super steels. You can always fall back on good old carbon steels. I'm fine with D2, 52100, 440C, etc.

Price is also important. When I pay $250 for a custom, I want nice steel. When I pay $100+ for a production folder, I want nice steel as well. If Spyderco can give me VG-10 for $45, why should I pay $60 for AUS6?

I'm a lot more forgiving with pocket knives than I am with fixed blades, because I use fixed blades to work outdoors and I want the best I can afford.
 
If I have my choices, I like ats-34 at least in folders pocket knives, and at least that in edc folders but prefer D2 or BG-42. Not wild about S60V. VG1 makes for very thin blades in my experience but super sharp. I have a buck in BG-42 (110) and love it. Also have one in 420HC and like it too. I have different expectations of different knives and that makes the difference in steel needs.
 
When I first got into knives, I was all gunho about the super steels. Then I followed some other members advice and bought a mora and a SAK. I have now decided to buy knives on Blade design, handle design, price, and materials (instead of only materials). I really like my SAK, and it is always in my pocket, with my supersteel folders being switched out. Blade design has a lot more to do with cutting then steel type. I have to admit that I like sharpening, it calms me down after work.

On the other hand, some knives push their steels properties to the extreme, then you realize the advantage of steels that are worth their weight in gold (the Spyderco Manix with its full flat grind and acute edge angle really exploit the hardness of the S30V that it is made of, a truly exceptional folder!)

Buy a knife for the knife, don't be a ferritist!

P.S. I too am only talking about folders. When you get into heavy duty fixed blades, steel and more importantly heat treat become more important.
 
440A (Schrade+) or 420HC can perform very well with a good heat treat.

I've got Schrades and Bucks that have proven this assertion time and time again.

Those two steels are probably my limit in the stainless category.
 
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