What's the toughest handle material- G10, micarta, or carbon fiber?

[superc]

Getting back to the question, toughest in what kind of environment? What activity do you foresee the knife participating in? Do you just want to hit it with a hammer, or do you have another entertainment in mind? I might want a different handle material in the woods than I would use while skin diving in the ocean. More info please.

 

[imaginefj]

I see it like this, you can get the mail from the mailbox to your house in a truck. Or you could use a wheelbarrow. Or you could carry it. The deal is any one of the ways is going to be just fine! Ironwood, stabilized of course, will be plenty tough for 9 out of ten users.

With that said micarta soaks up grease, sweat, blood so I prefer G10 on hunting knives so my knives don't smell gamey!

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I'm hoping to get input as to the pros/cons of each material. Thanks.

Stacked leather.

Just kidding.

 

[Newb]

Micarta is a tradename of Norplex-Micarta, one of the leading manufacturers of thermoset composite laminates. The term micarta is commonly used to describe thermoset composite laminates in general. Garolite is a trademarked magnesium oxide used in various plastics to give them certain physical and chemical characteristics during processing. Garolite grade 10 (G-10) is made from resin and glass fiber, as knarfeng pointed out, and it may be made by Norplex-Micarta, hard to say. G-10 can be thought of as a high grade of the more generic micarta, it has very specific characteristics of strength, thermal and electrical insulation, resistance to chemicals, and stability. Micarta as commonly used could refer to many compositions and grades of laminate.

I occasionally use G-10 in building industrial machinery. It's very strong, stable, resistant to chemicals, and doesn't absorb water. I also use Nylon, Teflon, Delrin, UHMW, and many variations of these depending on the characteristics I need. I can't say that G-10 is the best for a knife handle, it seems a little brittle, but definitely a good choice. It'll easily hold up to the daily abuse I'll give it. The G-10 material I purchase comes with a smooth surface, not especially grippy, but it's not nearly as slick as most plastics. My old Leek G-10 was only a half-year old when I lost it, and it was still deeply textured and grippy.

 

[SIFU1A]

this is the oldest thread i have ever seen anyone dredge up lol, april '02, i wonder if AD is still following it?

 

[Justin King]

Micarta and G 10 are made from PHENOLIC resins, which are not exactly the same as the epoxies we can buy in the store. Some comparing of home-made "micarta" to the real commercially-produced stuff has convinced me that the two are not comparable at the extreme end of things. So to say that micarta and G 10 are made with epoxies is only partially accurate at best.
As far as strength, in industrial applications, linen micarta is preferred over canvas micarta for intricately-shaped parts. G10 being a fiberglass laminate will likely have the highest tensile strength, but for a knife handle I think impact resistance is probably paramount since just about every knife used in the real world will get dropped at some point. Not sure which of these materials is best in that regard, they are all pretty brittle and prone to chipping at the edges and corners.

 

[Thalestin]

Micarta and G 10 are made from PHENOLIC resins, which are not exactly the same as the epoxies we can buy in the store. Some comparing of home-made "micarta" to the real commercially-produced stuff has convinced me that the two are not comparable at the extreme end of things. So to say that micarta and G 10 are made with epoxies is only partially accurate at best.
As far as strength, in industrial applications, linen micarta is preferred over canvas micarta for intricately-shaped parts. G10 being a fiberglass laminate will likely have the highest tensile strength, but for a knife handle I think impact resistance is probably paramount since just about every knife used in the real world will get dropped at some point. Not sure which of these materials is best in that regard, they are all pretty brittle and prone to chipping at the edges and corners.

Ive dropped my g10 handled knives a lot and they actually resist damage very very well. Much better than steel for example

 

[knarfeng]

Micarta and G 10 are made from PHENOLIC resins, which are not exactly the same as the epoxies we can buy in the store. Some comparing of home-made "micarta" to the real commercially-produced stuff has convinced me that the two are not comparable at the extreme end of things. So to say that micarta and G 10 are made with epoxies is only partially accurate at best.
As far as strength, in industrial applications, linen micarta is preferred over canvas micarta for intricately-shaped parts. G10 being a fiberglass laminate will likely have the highest tensile strength, but for a knife handle I think impact resistance is probably paramount since just about every knife used in the real world will get dropped at some point. Not sure which of these materials is best in that regard, they are all pretty brittle and prone to chipping at the edges and corners.

This is incorrect.

SOME Micarta is made from phenolic resin.
ALL G10 is epoxy.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

This is a great thread. I'm glad Justin King brought it back up. In fact, I'm going to move it from General Knife to Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment and sticky it for a while.

 

[winbag338]

wow, there's been alot of "strength" questions about knives lately....i just don't get it.
All three are going to be strong enough for anything a knife should be doing.
I've never even broke a opinel handle myself.

amen brother, amen.

 

[Bill1170]

A lot of the difficulty with discussing these handle materials is because both Micarta and G-10 were originally trade names/designations that have morphed over time into generic terms, in the same way that Kleenex did. The Micarta brand is a century old!

From professionalplastics.com website:
Micarta was the Westinghouse trade name for their early phenolic composites, now part of Norplex; Garolite is the McMaster-Carr tradename equivalent.

From the dictionary:
Micarta is a trademark of Norplex-Micarta industrial high pressure laminates and refers to a composite of linen, canvas, paper, fiberglass, carbon fiber or other fabric in a thermosetting plastic, originally used in electrical and decorative applications. Micarta(R) was developed by George Westinghouse at least as early as 1910 using phenolic resins invented by Dr. Leo Baekeland. These resins were used to impregnate paper and cotton fabric which were cured under pressure and high temperature to produce laminates. In later years this manufacturing method included the use of fiberglass fabric, other resin types were also used. Today Micarta high pressure industrial laminates are produced with a wide variety of resins and fibers. The term has been inappropriately used to generically refer to most resin impregnated fibre compounds. Common uses of modern high pressure laminates are as electrical insulators, printed circuit board substrates, and knife handles.

Epoxy-glass laminates:
The basic grade designations for glass epoxy laminates are: G10, G11, FR4 and FR5 [1]. Of these FR4 is the grade most widely used today. G-10 was the predecessor to FR-4 and lacks FR-4's self-extinguishing flammability characteristics. Hence FR-4 has widely replaced G-10 in most applications.

So, if you are so hot that your handle slabs catch fire spontaneously, then you want G-11 or FR-4 for their self-extinguishing characteristics. You can thank me later.

Bill

 

[NickZac]

If you destroy any of them, you are doing something terribly wrong...

All of the materials mentioned have extremely high tensile strength and extremely low weight making them all ideal for lightweight applications including knive. My knowledge of these materials is limited but I know some about the use of carbon fiber. Carbon fiber as stated has high tensile strength for its size, low weight, and minimal thermal expansion (meaning if you heat it up, it doesn’t get incredibly large). Carbon fiber comes from many thin, carbon based, fibers being woven together which in turn make a material with a tensile strength far higher than other materials of similar weights and sizes. The process of making it is also why carbon fiber costs so much as it is labor intensive and making it constitutes skilled labor.

The properties of carbon fiber has made it popular in a variety of industries and recently, the cutlery industry. I was introduced to carbon fiber when I modified cars. If you want to lose weight off of your car (which is a good thing as your car can move faster), turn to carbon fiber as it saves significant weight on the already relatively lightweight aluminum and is stronger. It saves a tremendous amount of weight over steel. Most carbon fiber (sometimes abbreviated as ‘CF’, ‘Cf’ or ‘cf’) car parts are carbon fiber skeletons combined with liquid plastic or plastic resin to give it more structural rigidity and to add to overall shock absorption, which is the one downside of carbon fiber’s performance as heavy impact can cause pure carbon fiber to crack. This is probably why most carbon fiber handled knives use resin as well because most makers know they will see significant shock from daily use such as dropping, hammering or even as a bunt force impact weapon. The most common carbon fiber part used on a car is the hood, which you see on many modified cars ranging from back-yard beaters to 1,000+ WHP Supras. The natural pattern of carbon fiber when combined with a clear resin gives it a shiny, 3-D appearance which has become popular and many people buy fake carbon fiber hoods and even carbon fiber contact paper. Obviously, fake carbon fiber does not offer any of the performance benefit of the real deal. With that said, the look generated by a true carbon fiber hood is simply a product of its design and is not for cosmetics; it just happens to look good. Real carbon fiber hoods cost between $300 and $2,500 but just a hood can save some tuners 100+ pounds which is an incredible weight loss (20-50 is more of the norm). My car had a carbon fiber hood, trunk panel, outer door panels and numerous trim pieces (which were more for cosmetics to match the rest) and I saved almost 200 pounds of weight on a car which was light to begin with but I retained as much, if not more, overall structural integrity of the vehicle. 200 pounds for what I did was worth its weight in gold and greatly helped aid performance. Carbon fiber has gained popularity in the aerospace and engineering industries as well for obvious reasons.

Now how does this relate to knives? The extreme lightweight nature of carbon fiber makes a difference in even small pocketknives where lighter is generally favored. The strength is definitely a plus and when combined with resin it has great toughness and shock resistance so the handle has added durability. In today’s knife world where tolerances are closer than ever, not having to worry about the handle enlarging in heat is also a plus. Unlike most metals, carbon fiber does not corrode and is largely unaffected by environmental elements. Finally, one cannot forgot that carbon fiber has a unique design which many people find cosmetically pleasing.

So is carbon fiber better than G10 or Micarta? I have knives which use all of these materials and they are all extremely tough. As carbon fiber becomes more and more popular, especially thanks to Spyderco using their peel ply carbon fiber which adds great grip, be sure to at least give it a shot as you will probably like it!

 

[Dog of War]

I've never noticed much of a functional differance between G-10 and Micarta, so I can't be much help there. Lots of people seem to like them though.

Carbon fiber is extremely light and strong, but it is brittle and can easily crack if dropped or impacted, so I wouldn't consider it to be ideal for a tough knife. If uncoated it scratches easily. It works well for lightweight structural members (on aircraft, for example) but on knives it is more of a decorative feature because of the way it catches and reflects light. Due to the high cost, there is also a bit of luxury appeal attached to carbon fiber, which is why some cars use imitation carbon fiber on the interior.

If you simply want the strongest handle material for a user knife I would recommend you look at Zytel and other FRNs. When combined with full steel liners, this is very strong and resistant both to bending and impact. Some people decry Zytel as feeling hollow or cheap, but that doesn't change the fact that it is light, chemicly stable, and virtually indestructable.

+1. Cosmetics aside, Zytel/FRN IMO wins if the overriding concern is practical toughness. I've done some pretty obscene things with unlined Zytel-handled folders, and they've amazed me.

If you're after a good balance of toughness and light weight, then carbon fiber is a good choice. And if you want toughness, good hand feel, and reasonable weight in a not-heavily-scaled knife, then I like G10.

As for Micarta, I've grown not to like it so much despite it's toughness: too heavy, don't like the feel if it's polished, don't care for the look if it's left a bit roughed up, and on higher-end knives, where you often see micarta, I'd much rather have wood scales.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

I am curious, since G10 uses fiberglass fibers, how do they get the different colors? I wouldn't think actual fibers of glass could have a color like red or blue, so do they dye the resin that bonds everything together? What about the multi-colored G10 that has different layers of colors?

 

[lk3331]

all i know is that g10 and carbon fibre are waterproof and carbon fibre is brittle

 

[fod]

I am curious, since G10 uses fiberglass fibers, how do they get the different colors? I wouldn't think actual fibers of glass could have a color like red or blue, so do they dye the resin that bonds everything together? What about the multi-colored G10 that has different layers of colors?

Glass cloth will turn the color of the resin when "wetted" out. If using a water clear resin, the finished laminate will be translucent (this makes it good to use with glow dust). As far as I can tell, the "ghost green" G10 we see is essentially the color of the industrial resin used in the manufacturing process.

For colored G10s, they can be made both ways you suggest, I have had very good results using dyes in the resin for a single color as well as using precolored glass cloth for multicolored laminates. The factory made laminates is made essentially the same way.

I hope this helps.

-Todd

 

[fod]

...
With that said micarta soaks up grease, sweat, blood so I prefer G10 on hunting knives so my knives don't smell gamey!

Not really. Simply put, all of the laminates are fiber reinforced thermoset resins (from Bondo to phenolics to epoxies to polyesters).

Noone would expect a block of cured resin to soak up anything. Also (depending on the resin) they are very chemical resistant. So a block of resin with a substrate as reinforcing in it cannot be expected to sponge up anything. Perhaps a tiny bit of exposed fibers on the surface, but the finer it is finished, the less chance of this happening. The resin basically has the fibers encapsulated. Of course some fibers, like glass are not prone to sponging up stuff in the first place.

Micarta and G 10 are made from PHENOLIC resins, which are not exactly the same as the epoxies we can buy in the store. Some comparing of home-made "micarta" to the real commercially-produced stuff has convinced me that the two are not comparable at the extreme end of things. So to say that micarta and G 10 are made with epoxies is only partially accurate at best.
As far as strength, in industrial applications, linen micarta is preferred over canvas micarta for intricately-shaped parts. G10 being a fiberglass laminate will likely have the highest tensile strength, but for a knife handle I think impact resistance is probably paramount since just about every knife used in the real world will get dropped at some point. Not sure which of these materials is best in that regard, they are all pretty brittle and prone to chipping at the edges and corners.

You are correct in general, but I need to speak to your last point.

A block of unreinforced cured resin CAN be brittle, although some resins are formulated to be pretty tough without reinforcements. A good example of this is whatever some poolballs and bowling balls were/ are made from this)

Some substrates and resins are better than others for certain applications, but for knife makers needs, most good quality ingredients can be argued to make the toughest portion of a typical knife (eg: it can be easier to damage the steel than a micarta handle)

Using two dozen layers of canvas with an aero-marine epoxy resin can be argued to be pretty damned tough . Pretty much any quality fiber (cotton, burlap, canvas, yarn etc) makes for a tough laminate. When backed with a steel tang, it is going to be very difficult make fail.

Of course with other substrates (glass, carbon fiber, basalt fiber, kevlar etc.), the same kind of manufacturing process is used in all sorts of products from missiles to car chassis/ bodies to aircraft wings to boat hulls. Arguably, within the knifemakers and knife users parameters, a well made laminate is potentially overkill.

Except perhaps when thrown into a dishwasher.

Regards,

-Todd

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

How are glass threads dyed to give the color in layered G10? Do they actually use colored glass like what would be used in stained glass work?

 

[fod]

How are glass threads dyed to give the color in layered G10? Do they actually use colored glass like what would be used in stained glass work?

Good question.

My supplier of colored glass cloth is very secretive about the process they use to make up colored glass fabrics. I do know they use plain glass cloth to begin with and object when I refer to their product as "dyed."

Regardless of how they do it, the color seems to be "through and through", unlike some other class products I have used. I'll have to put some under a microscope sometime to satisfy my curiosity though.

 

[Senang]

I have tried them all....Tero Tuf from Columbia Industrial Products are tougher than all of them afore mentioned...I hit a piece for 2 minutes straight with a ball peen hammer with no damage...Good stuff to use for handles...It is used to replace babit bearing material in industry...It is unbelievable and safe to work with without a respirator. When finished properly it grips just as good when wet...Me